Transcript
Download MP3 [52:22]Introduction
Hey in that location podcast listeners, Jonathan here. Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast is close self-psychology. Self psychology is constituent of the psychodynamic tradition which includes drive theory, ego psychology, as well as object-relations theory. I know some of you lot hearing the give-and-take “psychodynamic” as well as thinking, "old stuff.” But I receive got some skillful tidings for you. Self Psychology was developed inward the 1960s past times Heinz Kohut inward Chicago. And inward the basis of therapy, the 1960s isn’t really that long ago. It is close xv to twenty years afterwards after Carl Rogers started developing person-centered therapy which is yet the most commonly used therapy, as well as close the same fourth dimension that Tim Beck was developing cognitive therapy, which is in all probability the therapy with the most enquiry behind it.
Self psychology is neither widely used, nor does it receive got much empirical support. So why should you lot hear to the residuum of this episode? Well, my guest, doc Tom Young, is really interesting. And he makes a skillful declaration that self-psychology is the psychodynamic approach that has the best agree with social work. Tom is at nowadays a retired professor of social piece of work from Widener University as well as the writer of several publications on social piece of work as well as self psychology. Tom sees self-psychology equally the solely genuinely strengths-based psychodynamic therapy. That said, ane of the critiques of self psychology is that Kohut, similar many theorists of his day, traced nearly every psychological work dorsum to the mother. In Kohut's case, he blamed mothers for a failure to sympathize with their child. Kohut was the get-go psychodymanic theorist to set empathy at the center, an deed which some receive got suggested ushered inward the era of relational dynamic therapy. As Tom discusses, empathy inward self psychology is a way of addressing unmet developmental needs, which is slightly dissimilar than the way Carl Rogers saw empathy. Speaking of development, Tom as well as I talked close 3 experiences that Kohut said were fundamental inward the evolution of the self: mirroring, idealizing, as well as twinship. Don't worry, Tom volition select those ideas to life.
One term that Tom uses that powerfulness demand a footling to a greater extent than explanation is "selfobject" (and that’s without the hyphen – only ane word, selfobject). Kohut saw "selfobjects" equally "things" that serve psychological functions for the "self" that aid us remain cohesive. They perform those functions through reflecting dorsum who nosotros are, providing us someone or something to idealize, or helping us experience connected to others. So selfobjects are literally exterior of a person, but are essential components of the internal "self." Selfobjects tin live on people, objects, or activities. Here are a few examples:
- Have you lot ever had the experience of going out with novel parents solely to realize that they receive got completely lost the powerfulness to verbalize close anything other than their baby? Even though the babe exterior of them as well as hopefully at dwelling with a babysitter, their babe is an essential constituent of the parents self-identity.
- If you lot select a cellular telephone from a teenager as well as they say "it is similar you're ripping my arm from my body," the telephone is a selfobject. The cellular telephone connects teens to peers as well as that connexion peers is ane of the ways that the developing teen feels whole.
- When you lot went away to college, did your parents bring out your sleeping accommodation to a younger sibling, or remodel it thence it looked nil similar your room. Did you lot experience upset, similar they were giving away a constituent of you? Kohut would say that your sleeping accommodation was a selfobject. If you lot were surprised at how much you lot felt the loss of your room, Kohut would say that makes sense since we're solely made aware of the role that the selfobject plays when it is taken away.
- But in ane lawsuit we’re aware of its role, nosotros tin consciously plow to it during times of stress for reinforcement. I think the easiest way to think close this is to think of a vocal or slice of music that has gotten you lot through tough times. I've had several friends for whom Stevie Nicks tunes receive got gotten them through their worst times. Literally times when they wanted to kill themselves. Music acted equally a reinforcement, a way to set their fractured self dorsum together, fifty-fifty if only for a few minutes. And sometimes a few minutes of hope is all people demand to stay.
Tom talks close how self-psychology tin live on used with individuals, couples, families as well as groups as well as he shares a representative report of self psychology with an adolescent male. We destination with resources for folks interested inward learning more.
Before nosotros acquire to the episode I wishing to give a twain of call outs. First, give thank you lot you to everyone who responded to my asking to fill upwards out our Podtrac Audience survey. Thousands of people download the podcast, but I know real footling close you. In less than ii weeks I had over 100 responses. Thank you! If you lot haven’t filled out the survey, delight do. You tin observe the link on the upper correct side of Guardian of the Golden Gate: Interview with Kevin Briggs. If you’re interested inward donating a transcript inward substitution for a call out inward the adjacent episode, delight send me a message on the Social Work Podcast Facebook page: facebook.com/swpodcast. As for the frequency of the podcast, I acquire them out equally rapidly equally possible. I’m working on some ways to automate some of the tasks with the goal of making the podcast to a greater extent than regular. Until then, I humbly offering you lot my irregularly scheduled podcast.
And now, without farther ado, on to episode 107 of the Social Work Podcast: Self Psychology as well as Social Work: Interview with Tom Young, Ph.D.
Interview
[09:00]
Jonathan Singer: Tom, thank you lot thence much for existence hither today as well as talking with us close self psychology. And my get-go enquiry for you lot is, what is self psychology?
Tom Young: Well, it’s a theory. Right? And theories are sort of mental metaphors that explicate what makes people tick, how they behave, as well as why. And this detail theory which came out of psychoanalysis, it’s a footling flake inaccessible to a lot of normal people, non that psychoanalysts aren’t normal [laughs] thence I endeavour to maintain it uncomplicated as well as also present how it’s deceptively simple. So, for example, it’s a theory that places the self at the real middle of development. It’s completely dissimilar from Freud’s view. It’s non close sex. It’s non close aggression. It’s close the self’s wishing for cohesion, for productivity, for feeling vital, alive, as well as living a meaningful life. And the way the someone invented it, his call was Heinz Kohut—died inward 1981—the way he mapped it out makes a for certain amount of sense to me fifty-fifty though I think the words that he used were somewhat cumbersome. He said every self needs to experience self-esteem as well as inward guild to receive got self-esteem, inward guild to experience skillful close yourself, you lot receive got to experience existence admired as well as enjoyed past times other people. Right? So he called that experience a mirroring experience which is a footling flake of a poor selection of words inward my sentiment because it’s non a uncomplicated reflection. Right? It’s similar I jeopardy showing you lot what I am interested in, what sort of someone I am, as well as thence I hold off to take in how you lot reply to it. Right? If you lot reply to it with interest, with enjoyment, with appreciation, thence I experience similar you lot sort of acquire me. Right? And if I receive got repeated experiences of that sort thence it sort of consolidates within me a skillful feeling close myself as well as self-esteem. All right. The 2nd thing he thought that nosotros all needed inward guild to live on healthy, vital, productive selves, was sort of an powerfulness to regulate our ain emotions as well as our behaviors thence that when nosotros interact with other people as well as with things inward the basis nosotros receive got a for certain amount of flexibility and, for lack of a improve word, self-control inward the process. And his sentiment of how that comes close is quite similar to what I only described for self-esteem. His sentiment is that when a someone is little, anybody who has had a ii twelvemonth quondam knows this, as well as they start to tottle, as well as they are sort of cruising around the house, as well as they are similar unguided missiles; they tin bang into only close whatever corner of an object that you lot receive got as well as they’re forthwith hurt. Right? They didn’t expression the corner of the tabular array to scope out and, you lot know, knock them inward the caput as well as thence they plow inward their distress as well as inward their pain, they plow to the parent to arrive better. Right? So, the parent tin solely exercise what parents do. You pick the kid up, you lot endeavour to comfort them, you lot osculation the boo-boo, you lot endeavour to distract them thence that they don’t sort of stay [laughs] caught upwards inward that menstruation of uncontrollable sobbing that is typically the case. And then typically what a parent volition exercise afterwards comforting a kid volition live on to say, “oh, come upwards on, let’s endeavour to play this,” thence in that location is sort of a two-part procedure or ii phases to this experience that I am trying to describe; ane is sort of the comforting as well as soothing constituent as well as thence the other is the sort of the inspiration, “let’s acquire dorsum into the game,” part.
[13:37]
Excuse me for existence a footling flake masculinist here, because it’s by as well as large mothers that exercise this initially, of course, but again, repeated experiences—he called these idealizing experiences, Kohut did thence that’s the buzzword, only similar mirroring. Idealizing? What does this mean? For a lot of people it only doesn’t connect with anything. The way that I brand sense of it is that you lot receive got the immature kid needing to scope out to a stronger, to a greater extent than powerful adult who is sort of an “ideal” to the kid for lack of a improve word, as well as through that interaction the kid gets comforted, soothed, as well as thence also inspired to displace ahead or displace along. Right? And again, if you lot receive got repeated experiences of this sort when you’re growing upwards what happens is that you lot laid out to internalize this procedure of existence able to sort of recognize your ain discomfort as well as soothe yourself. I hateful fifty-fifty this phrase self-soothing sort of comes inward a fairly straight way correct out of self psychology equally good equally the capacity to reinvigorate yourself, inspire yourself, or observe sources of reinvigoration as well as inspiration for yourself. So it’s non something that happens inward ane interaction. Right? It happens inward multiple interactions over time. And the tertiary slice of the puzzle that Kohut crafted is inward some ways the hardest to understand. He asserted that every self needs what he called twinship experiences. It’s much harder to explain, but I’ll exercise my best here. Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 twinship experience is the experience of existence with someone that you lot experience is similar you lot as well as that you lot are similar them. Right? So this is an experience of belongingness, of connectedness, of participating inward some sort of community no affair how little it is. And the best way to understand twinship is to non receive got it as well as take in what happens when you lot experience similar you lot are the solely someone similar you lot inward a room. So, for example, since nosotros are both social piece of work educators nosotros know of students from minority groups who destination upwards inward a classroom where they are the solely ane from their grouping as well as boy, exercise they experience disconnected, alienated sometimes, inept… They really feel… And I don’t know, since I lived on the Southside of Chicago for 10 years as well as used populace shipping a lot, in that location were times when I was the solely white someone on a bus. Right? And I knew thence what it felt similar to non receive got that twinship connection. Right? I hateful you lot really experience similar you lot are a fish out of water. Incidentally, I think a lot of kids with learning difficulties, as well as attending deficit problems receive got this experience when they are real young. When they get-go move to school, nobody knows they receive got this problem. They know they’re different, but nobody else knows that they are different, as well as thence it sets inward displace a pretty hard chain of evolution until somebody gets it. Right?
[17:19]
Jonathan Singer: Ok, thence you lot receive got those 3 experiences inward childhood and—
Tom Young: Repeatedly.
[17:25]
Jonathan Singer: Repeatedly. These 3 repeated experiences. It’s a developmental process. Right?
Tom Young: Right.
[17:30]
Jonathan Singer: Not only once. And thence what exercise you lot acquire from having those 3 experiences repeatedly?
Tom Young: Right. That’s a skillful question. Well, what you lot acquire or you lot should acquire is the capacity to live on able to monitor your ain self-esteem as well as regulate it because inward this universe compost happens as well as in that location are all sorts of slings as well as arrows that come upwards our way. We endure disappointments, our feelings acquire hurt, nosotros experience betrayed, nosotros experience ignored, or nosotros experience injured, or disrespected. Right? These are all sort of situations that I think of equally fairly mutual occurrences. And if you lot acquire these 3 things that we’ve been talking close thence you lot should receive got the capacity: first, to monitor as well as deal your ain emotional reactions. Second, to monitor as well as deal your ain behaviors inward the wake of those emotional reactions if you lot tin think that way. Third, you lot should live on able to seat other people who tin aid you lot when you lot can’t exercise it yourself because you’ve had repeated experiences where you lot know the sort of response that you lot demand as well as the sort of someone who is most probable to deliver it if you lot seek it out. Right? So there’s a way inward which this process, the developmental procedure that nosotros receive got been talking about, never ends as well as this is really something that nosotros receive got to proceed until our final breath. Right? We really demand to live on connected to the correct kinds of others inward guild to business office at our maximum productivity, efficiency, or whatsoever. In fact, nosotros were talking before close evidence as well as back upwards of this theory, I tell my students, “Don’t select my give-and-take for it. Do this experience with yourself. If you’re inward the presence of somebody who really gets you, who understands what you’re going through, as well as who is comforting as well as inspiring inward the way I receive got been describing, inward add-on to their agreement as well as appreciating you lot as well as you lot experience that you lot are with someone that is similar you lot as well as you lot are having this experience inward the introduce moment, non developmentally, but inward the introduce 2nd today, if you lot are with someone who delivers those 3 things to you, exercise you lot business office improve than you lot would if you lot didn’t receive got this person?” They all say correct away, “Yeah, nosotros understand what you lot are getting at.” They understand you. I think that was what Kohut was getting at, too. This theory really is a theory for life as well as thence that raises the adjacent question.
[20:45]
Jonathan Singer: And the adjacent enquiry is—so if you lot don’t get these 3 things as well as you lot don’t acquire the twinship experience, the mirroring, as well as the—
Tom Young: Idealizing.
[20:56]
Jonathan Singer: And the idealizing. Then what happens? How does the someone experience life?
Tom Young: This is where I think the theory becomes most useful for social workers because, remember, Kohut set the self inward the middle of this psychological universe which is really a psychosocial universe. Right? It’s all relational. It’s all interactive. The self needs to experience skillful close itself. The self needs to experience that it is an agent nether its ain control. The self needs to experience connected equally a fellow member of some sort of community, right? So if you lot don’t acquire it inward the ways that we’ve only been talking close thence you lot observe ways to brand upwards for it inward a sort of a substitute way. Right? So all of the abrupt things similar inwardness abuse, violence as well as aggression, sexual addictions move problematic substitutes for getting self-esteem, the feeling of command as well as regulation, as well as the feeling of belonging as well as connectedness. I say they’re problematic because nosotros know what drugs, sex, as well as violence do. Rock as well as roll, of course, is exempted. That is really, I think, what is most helpful for social workers because the residuum of the basis tends to sentiment drugs, sex, as well as violence inward a real sort of moralistic way. I mean, right, it’s dangerous, as well as it's destructive. That’s all true, but if you lot are going to aid somebody exit from nether these, I can’t think of them all but addictions of a for certain kind, you lot receive got to understand what the business office of the dysfunction is.
[22:50]
Jonathan Singer: Right. And you lot can’t say, “Well, you’re addicted to drugs because you lot are a morally deficit person.”
Tom Young: Right. [laughs] Actually somebody has in all probability already told them that, as well as for somebody who is, let’s only say, subject on—pick cocaine because it’s ane of those substances that makes you lot experience big, makes you lot experience good, makes you lot experience smart, as well as makes you lot experience happy. You know? It’s all the things you lot would hope happens without needing the cocaine. Right? If somebody is going to boot cocaine thence nosotros receive got to supply them with an choice experience that doesn’t involve the white powder.
[23:37]
Jonathan Singer: So would you lot say that cocaine provides an idealizing experience?
Tom Young: I think that’s a neat question. I think that recreational drugs tin supply multiple selfobject experiences. I hadn’t used that give-and-take selfobject before thence I receive got to backtrack a footling flake correct now, right? The cocaine becomes the self’s object because the self is using the cocaine to generate this enhanced feeling of strength. This is the idealizing part. It generates happiness, peradventure a for certain feeling of sort of togetherness, as well as cohesion. “I am on my game. I’m high but I’m on my game” sort of thing. And then, I don’t know whether it also has an affect on self-esteem. [laughs] I haven’t had that much experience personally with cocaine but I think that in that location is this sort of illusion of only skillful feeling that comes from it thence that’s what I hateful when I think a detail inwardness tin really generate to a greater extent than than ane selfobject experience. Sort of thinking out loud hither close violence as well as rage, I think rage is non thence much a twinship experience; an aggressive rage is really a substitute for feeling real vulnerable as well as real powerless, as well as in that location is nil quite similar rage to contrary that feeling.
[25:20]
Jonathan Singer: So let’s say you lot receive got a customer who comes inward who’s got addictions, who is aggressive—maybe this is a kid inward a juvenile jurist setting.
Tom Young: Sure.
[25:31]
Jonathan Singer: And you lot start to understand his province of affairs using these concepts. These are things that are a reflective of non getting for certain things developmentally. How does that plow into treatment? How does that plow into what you lot do? What exercise you lot exercise with that now?
Tom Young: [laughs] That’s a neat question, because I think this is the hardest constituent of the theory for most people because, get-go of all, our civilisation wants the violence to halt as well as wants them to halt using drugs, right, thence forthwith we’re sort of predisposed to wishing to alter this kid as well as his behavior. Secondly, nosotros powerfulness really be, I don’t know, peradventure frightened a footling flake or disgusted inward some sort of moral way with his behavior, depending on what shape the violence has taken. So what this theory asks us to exercise is to set all that wishing to alter him on a shelf or on a backburner as well as first, understand what is it similar for him. Right? I hateful how does he really experience when he hits somebody? What does it exercise for him? It’s almost similar a ho-hum displace replay procedure that I think is fundamental. I think it’s at the pump of empathy. Right? It’s similar nosotros expression at this demeanour from the outside, as well as nosotros think nosotros know what it way but that’s non really what is of import here. What is of import is to understand it from the inside. What is it similar for him? What are the kinds of situations, as well as the feelings, as well as the thought processes that he’s having leading upwards to scoring some drugs as well as using them. What sort of situations, what kinds of provocations precede a vehement episode on his part? How is he really feeling when someone calls him a racial slur or whatever sort of derogatory name? Because, only to carry on with this a footling bit, what I think oft happens is that in that location is this almost feeling of panic that the self is going to live on obliterated, taken over, controlled, or demolished inward some ways.
[28:27]
Jonathan Singer: So you lot understand the violence equally protective inward a sense like, “I am going to assault get-go before I am attacked. I am going to defend myself before somebody destroys me.”
Tom Young: Yes, that is some other way inward which the self psychology completely turns Freudian psychology on its head. Aggression is non master copy inward self psychology equally it is inward Freudian psychology. Aggression is a byproduct. It’s almost similar a intermission downwards product, right? If the self is non feeling safe, is non feeling cohesive, or appreciated thence violence is admittedly a poor substitute but it works. Right? So people hear close self psychology as well as normally when people similar me handgrip forth on it, nosotros brand a large bargain close empathy as well as most people start to yawn afterwards ii or 3 minutes, right, because they say, “Oh, empathy, yeah, nosotros know close empathy.” Well… [laughs] We don’t know close empathy. None of us really knows what it’s similar for some other someone until nosotros endeavour to understand that other someone as well as that other someone helps us understand them so, for example, I tell my students, “You know close your assessments as well as your handling plans? Until your customer feels, really feels that you lot acquire them, you lot don’t really receive got anything you lot tin count on because solely when a someone feels—like if I experience that you lot acquire me as well as that you lot appreciate me, I volition tell you lot things close me that I wouldn’t tell you lot until I felt that you lot got me.” So for this hypothetical kid that you lot are talking close inward the juvenile jurist organization with a tape of vehement demeanour as well as inwardness abuse, it won’t live on until he really feels inward some sort of emotionally prophylactic way that nosotros acquire him, it won’t live on until thence that he tells us how it is that he becomes vehement as well as how it is that he resorts to using drugs as well as when, as well as where, as well as then we tin formulate a handling plan. Right? We tin start to verbalize to him inward words that are non unique to self psychology. We tin start talking close triggers. We tin verbalize to him close starting to monitor his ain emotional reactions to things, fifty-fifty acquire him to predict when he’ll cross the line, when he goes into the blood-red zone. Then nosotros tin start to verbalize to him close it as well as say, “OK, thence nosotros know that going into the blood-red zone happens. We know what happens to you lot when you lot move into the blood-red zone. You acquire busted. You destination upwards talking to people similar me. Right? What would piece of work for you lot other than violence equally you lot are approaching the blood-red zone?” And what’s interesting close this is how people create their ain handling plans. I hateful they think of things that are much to a greater extent than effective as well as much to a greater extent than creative typically than nosotros do. We say, “Oh, well, acquire a punching bag.” Well, you lot know the kid’s non going to carry around a punching handbag around the neighborhood, right?
[31:50]
Jonathan Singer: That’s correct or, you lot know, come upwards up with your anger thermometer.
Tom Young: Exactly. So I think that is the hard thing for clinicians, clinical social workers, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses, I hateful for all of us really, is to acquire behind that demeanour as well as to really move that extra footstep inward agreement what’s going on within the person. If nosotros succeed with that thence we’re really working with the someone as well as finding ways for them to attain skillful feelings close themselves, the capacity to regulate their emotions as well as their behaviors, as well as the powerfulness to interact with other people inward a way that industrial plant for them, pregnant industrial plant for them thence that it keeps them out of that blood-red zone.
[32:46]
Jonathan Singer: So it sounds similar empathy is a fundamental concept as well as empathy is almost a tool to allow your customer to trust you—that you lot acquire them. I know inward social work, nosotros often verbalize close empathy inward price of Carl Rogers—genuineness, empathy, unconditional positive regard. Is in that location a way inward which self psychology understands or conceptualizes empathy differently?
Tom Young: Well, I don’t think it would live on radically different. What’s radical is in all probability the emphasis placed on it, the centrality of it, inward price of interventions that are derived from the theory. I don’t wishing to verbalize trash close the Rogerian thing. It’s to a greater extent than than repeating dorsum to the someone what they’ve said; it’s generating with words your agreement of a someone inward his or her context, which is both contemporary, “where they live on now,” but also historical. So, for example, when I run across with clients as well as I inquire them, going dorsum to this hypothetical province of affairs with the kid nosotros were talking close before, if nosotros acquire to talking close approaching the blood-red zone, ane enquiry I wishing to inquire is, “Now, I think this has happened to you lot lots of times inward your life. When was the get-go fourth dimension you lot call upwards coming upwards to this blood-red zone similar this?” So your empathy does deepen. The to a greater extent than you lot understand what a someone is really going through, the to a greater extent than you lot are entering his universe as well as leaving yours inward the waiting room someplace. This is also a hard thing for people as well as for clinicians to do, I think. It’s hard to sustain what Kohut referred to equally an empathic immersion inward someone else’s psychological life: psychologically understood both inward contemporary as well as historical context. It’s non tardily to do. We all receive got our ain brains. You can’t unhook them as well as disengage them land you lot are doing this thence it’s key to live on able to maintain yourself focused on this person’s experience, as well as agreement this person’s experience. So then, to acquire dorsum to your question, you’re right, empathy is non solely an assessment tool, but when the someone starts to experience it, it really has therapeutic effects fifty-fifty though nosotros are non fifty-fifty talking therapy or intervention, yet. We’re talking understanding, but the to a greater extent than a someone feels understood, equally nosotros were maxim before, the improve they business office fifty-fifty inward the moment.
[36:10]
Jonathan Singer: So that raises the question—assessment as well as thence intervention—are in that location things that are specific to self psychology inward price of intervention?
Tom Young: I don’t think there’s anything specific. I think that’s ane of the reasons why to my noesis self psychology has non generated a manualized handling that tin live on evaluated inward a measure enquiry fashion, but I exercise think that equally your agreement of the someone deepens inward this empathetic way nosotros were talking close before, that you lot laid out to take in both historically inward the person’s life as well as inward the way the someone interacts with you lot what that person’s self is seeking for most now. I don’t know how long it has been since you lot receive got worked with adolescent kids but I call upwards working with adolescent kids inward a psychiatric inpatient unit of measurement as well as you lot could tell which kids were starved for mirroring experiences. I hateful they volition tell you lot how wonderful they are for hours on destination as well as it’s really because they receive got been treated similar footling snots.
[37:42]
Jonathan Singer: Like they are non wonderful.
Tom Young: Like they are non wonderful. That’s right, as well as other kids volition sort of introduce themselves equally existence pretty much totally unregulated. I hateful nosotros say that they receive got impulse command problems, right? Well, that’s a someone that needs a strong figure to remain with them when they are feeling unregulated as well as figure out ways to deliver some of that comforting as well as calming… I mean, that musical note of voice, only the way you lot seat yourself physically with a kid. You don’t acquire inward his face. You sit down downwards amongst of him. You endeavour to initiate conversations like, “You’re looking a footling out of sorts. What’s going on?” You acquire a sort of conversation going where you lot really select the role of the idealized other, where you lot select the role of the self-esteem bringing mirror. Right? Or you lot select the role of only “being with,” especially for those kids who experience thence dissimilar from the residuum of the universe.
[39:00]
Jonathan Singer: So the handling procedure is really being those 3 types of self-objects.
Tom Young: That’s right. It’s to a greater extent than a therapy of existence than it is of doing.
[39:15]
Jonathan Singer: I tin take in how that would live on tough to manualize because you lot wouldn’t say, “Sessions 3 through 7: You are the mirroring object.” [laughs]
Tom Young: [laughs] Right.
[39:24]
Jonathan Singer: Because it wouldn’t brand whatever sense as well as you lot know, nosotros receive got been talking close kids but this handling tin piece of work for anybody because you lot said this is procedure that goes on throughout your life.
Tom Young: That’s right.
[39:38]
Jonathan Singer: Is this something you lot could utilisation with couples as well as families? Not only individuals?
Tom Young: Yes, I think so. In my ain work, I exercise take in many couples. And if you lot halt as well as think close the kinds of experiences that nosotros were talking close earlier, inward a spousal human relationship or it doesn’t fifty-fifty receive got to live on spousal human relationship but a committed long term relationship, it doesn’t receive got to live on heterosexual, it tin live on homosexual, what are some of the things nosotros are looking for from our partner? Aren’t nosotros looking for some sort of that credence that builds self-esteem? Aren’t nosotros looking for comfort when we’re disappointed as well as down? Aren’t nosotros looking for somebody that nosotros experience nosotros tin sort of navigate this basis with together, that nosotros belong with, as well as that belongs with us? So what I think happens with a lot of couples inward distress is that something has happened inward their life together that has made them fearful that they’re non going to acquire this from the other someone as well as equally shortly equally they acquire fearful that they are non going to acquire this from the other someone thence the other someone becomes similar the enemy. And thence the real foundations of intimacy acquire eroded past times this fright that the other someone is going to wound us rather than supply those kinds of experiences. So when I piece of work with couples I pass a lot of fourth dimension trying to say, “What’s your worst fright hither as well as isn’t that fright that you’re non going to acquire some of these skillful things?” This is truthful with families, too, I think. The funny thing close families is that some children tin remind their parents of the someone they were afraid they powerfulness move or the kid volition remind the parent of a sibling who has gone astray. What happens is that the parents inward a seat unit of measurement province of affairs start interacting with the kid out of fright that the kid is going to move something they don’t wishing the kid to become. Then that fright also erodes the procedure or compromises or corrodes the procedure of the kid getting the sort of self-esteem enhancing, the self-control building, as well as the interpersonal kinds of skills. So I think the theory tin underpin a lot of systemic work. For those of your listeners who are interested, I did endeavour to articulate that inward an article that was published inward the Social Service Review dorsum inward the early on 90s called, “Environmental Modification as well as the Self Psychological Perspective.” I think a lot of social workers destination upwards inward positions where they could aid systems recalibrate thence that the people inward those systems would acquire to a greater extent than of the sort of self-enhancing experiences with each other rather than this fearful, fright based distancing sort of interactions with each other. I think I observe it a pretty versatile theory inward price of working with children, with adolescents, with adults individually, or inward couples, or equally parts of seat unit of measurement systems. Other people receive got applied it to working with groups. I receive got non done that. It’s sort of interesting to think close how inward a grouping experience equally sort of equally envisioned past times Yalom, to think who underneath that grouping procedure would live on getting these kinds of experiences, as well as what a grouping facilitator could exercise to arrive possible for the grouping members to supply them to each other? So I think that in that location is an application there, too, although it’s non something that I am especially knowledgeable about.
[44:05]
Jonathan Singer: Are in that location resources that you lot tin recommend for folks who wishing to know more? We tin set links to those on the Social Work Podcast website.
Tom Young: Ok. Well, this could acquire a footling autobiographical here. I solely met Heinz Kohut once, but I knew his married adult woman for close 3 years. During a detail stressful fourth dimension inward my life, I was seeing her for counseling or therapy. Betty Kohut was her name. She was a social worker, as well as she had a real unopen friend named Miriam Elson who was also a social worker. Miriam Elson really worked professionally with Heinz Kohut equally good equally existence friends with him socially, as well as she’s written a majority called Self Psychology inward Clinical Social Work. I hateful it could peradventure fifty-fifty live on close xv years quondam at nowadays but it’s yet available. It’s inward paperback as well as I think it’s published past times Norton. And thence there’s a majority that Helene Jackson edited, the exact championship of which escapes me at the moment, but people similar that because each chapter applies the theory to piece of work with a dissimilar population thence that you lot tin acquire to a greater extent than target work focused inward that majority than you lot tin inward the ane past times Miriam Elson. There is a serial that a lot of people don’t know close that I think is real valuable called Progress inward Self Psychology. I think that’s set out past times The Analytic Press. It was edited past times a adult man named Arnold Goldberg for years. He doesn’t exercise it anymore, but Goldberg was collaborator as well as contemporary of Kohut’s. Every twelvemonth in that location were annual conferences inward self psychology. People came as well as gave papers applying the theory to dissimilar situations as well as those papers thence got compiled inward this serial called Progress inward Self Psychology. I think it is ane of the richest sources for people who really wishing to know, “How exercise I utilisation this stuff?”
[46:35]
Jonathan Singer: That’s great. Well, nosotros volition set links to those on the Social Work Podcast and, of course, whatever of the materials that you lot receive got published, we’ll set links to those on in that location equally well.
Tom Young: Great.
[46:46]
Jonathan Singer: So what are some of the limitations of self psychology?
Tom Young: Well, I think a large limitation inward our electrical flow era is that everybody wants a prepare for whatever ane of the disorders inward the DSM. Right? I hateful if you lot receive got anxiety, if you lot receive got depression, if you lot receive got OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, or panic with or without agoraphobia, as well as on as well as on as well as on, it makes perfect sense that everyone would wishing to know, look, isn’t in that location a handling for this? Isn’t in that location an intervention that fixes this?
[47:30]
Jonathan Singer: Right, similar dialectical demeanour therapy for women with borderline personality disorder who self-harm?
Tom Young: Exactly. In all fairness to self psychology, it was non developed with that goal inward mind. So a potential limitation is that if you lot are looking to sort of cure schizophrenia or reconstruct a borderline personality disorder [laughs] or eliminate panic attacks with self psychology, that’s a waste materials of fourth dimension because self psychology really is an empowering psychology. So the someone is ever bigger than, to a greater extent than than the symptom or the disorder, as well as what self psychology is trying to exercise is to empower the self that’s contending with the disorder or the diagnosis. So fifty-fifty a someone struggling with schizophrenia tin live on related to or interacted with inward a way that is guided past times self psychology as well as if it’s done inward the way that we’ve been talking close before thence the someone struggling with schizophrenia feels empowered to bargain with his or her schizophrenia as well as similarly for the other disorders that were mentioned. Lots of fourth dimension I think as well as I don’t understand precisely why this is, peradventure only because it came out of psychoanalysis, but people sometimes criticize self psychology for existence a deficit model as well as I approximate it is because, you lot know, the absence of mirroring developmentally or the absence of idealizing leads to a sort of psychoanalytic basis sentiment with structural deficits inward the personality. Yeah, you lot tin move in that location but I don’t think Kohut was coming from that seat at all. He was coming from what is every self striving for. Every self seeks to live on healthy. Every self wants these kinds of experiences because it makes you lot a to a greater extent than vibrant, a to a greater extent than cohesive, a to a greater extent than productive, a to a greater extent than creative person. That’s the way all selves wishing to live on thence I take in the theory non equally a deficit model but to a greater extent than equally a strength based model really with a focus on empowering the self no affair with what the self is contending with inward price of these other kinds of disorders.
[50:05]
Jonathan Singer: And that really fits with social work.
Tom Young: I think so.
[50:08]
Jonathan Singer: Yeah, because social work, the way that it is existence taught these days, the ways that it has been taught for xv to twenty years is “focus on strengths,” the strengths perspective, focus on what your customer brings to the table, resilience, as well as all those sorts of things. And it sounds similar self psychology from your agreement as well as how nosotros receive got talked close it really fits good with that.
Tom Young: I couldn’t handgrip to a greater extent than as well as I am thence glad you lot mentioned resilience because I think the resilience enquiry converges on this theoretical formulation of self psychology. If you lot acquire these kinds of experiences that nosotros receive got been talking about, you lot are a to a greater extent than resilient someone no affair what your circumstances are.
[50:45]
Jonathan Singer: So that could live on ane of the reasons why somebody who is at jeopardy could live on resilient because they had these experiences of somebody mirroring their goodness as well as who was able to over years supply them with that.
Tom Young: Exactly, as well as nosotros telephone yell upwards them protective factors. [laughs] Right?
[51:07]
Jonathan Singer: [laughs] That’s right, the protective factors.
Tom Young: Protective factors inward the jeopardy as well as resilience framework. Right.
[51:15]
Jonathan Singer: Well, Tom, this has been great. Thank you lot thence much for taking fourth dimension out inward talking with us close self psychology. I really appreciate the insight into the model as well as I hope that folks out in that location listening acquire equally excited close it equally I am.
Tom Young: That’s great, Jonathan. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you lot real much.
End
Transcript generously donated past times Amy Smith, early childhood special didactics paraprofessional.
APA (6th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2016, Nov 1). #107 - Self Psychology for Social Workers: Interview with Tom Young, Ph.D. [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from /search?q=briggs
[17:19]
Jonathan Singer: Ok, thence you lot receive got those 3 experiences inward childhood and—
Tom Young: Repeatedly.
[17:25]
Jonathan Singer: Repeatedly. These 3 repeated experiences. It’s a developmental process. Right?
Tom Young: Right.
[17:30]
Jonathan Singer: Not only once. And thence what exercise you lot acquire from having those 3 experiences repeatedly?
Tom Young: Right. That’s a skillful question. Well, what you lot acquire or you lot should acquire is the capacity to live on able to monitor your ain self-esteem as well as regulate it because inward this universe compost happens as well as in that location are all sorts of slings as well as arrows that come upwards our way. We endure disappointments, our feelings acquire hurt, nosotros experience betrayed, nosotros experience ignored, or nosotros experience injured, or disrespected. Right? These are all sort of situations that I think of equally fairly mutual occurrences. And if you lot acquire these 3 things that we’ve been talking close thence you lot should receive got the capacity: first, to monitor as well as deal your ain emotional reactions. Second, to monitor as well as deal your ain behaviors inward the wake of those emotional reactions if you lot tin think that way. Third, you lot should live on able to seat other people who tin aid you lot when you lot can’t exercise it yourself because you’ve had repeated experiences where you lot know the sort of response that you lot demand as well as the sort of someone who is most probable to deliver it if you lot seek it out. Right? So there’s a way inward which this process, the developmental procedure that nosotros receive got been talking about, never ends as well as this is really something that nosotros receive got to proceed until our final breath. Right? We really demand to live on connected to the correct kinds of others inward guild to business office at our maximum productivity, efficiency, or whatsoever. In fact, nosotros were talking before close evidence as well as back upwards of this theory, I tell my students, “Don’t select my give-and-take for it. Do this experience with yourself. If you’re inward the presence of somebody who really gets you, who understands what you’re going through, as well as who is comforting as well as inspiring inward the way I receive got been describing, inward add-on to their agreement as well as appreciating you lot as well as you lot experience that you lot are with someone that is similar you lot as well as you lot are having this experience inward the introduce moment, non developmentally, but inward the introduce 2nd today, if you lot are with someone who delivers those 3 things to you, exercise you lot business office improve than you lot would if you lot didn’t receive got this person?” They all say correct away, “Yeah, nosotros understand what you lot are getting at.” They understand you. I think that was what Kohut was getting at, too. This theory really is a theory for life as well as thence that raises the adjacent question.
[20:45]
Jonathan Singer: And the adjacent enquiry is—so if you lot don’t get these 3 things as well as you lot don’t acquire the twinship experience, the mirroring, as well as the—
Tom Young: Idealizing.
[20:56]
Jonathan Singer: And the idealizing. Then what happens? How does the someone experience life?
Tom Young: This is where I think the theory becomes most useful for social workers because, remember, Kohut set the self inward the middle of this psychological universe which is really a psychosocial universe. Right? It’s all relational. It’s all interactive. The self needs to experience skillful close itself. The self needs to experience that it is an agent nether its ain control. The self needs to experience connected equally a fellow member of some sort of community, right? So if you lot don’t acquire it inward the ways that we’ve only been talking close thence you lot observe ways to brand upwards for it inward a sort of a substitute way. Right? So all of the abrupt things similar inwardness abuse, violence as well as aggression, sexual addictions move problematic substitutes for getting self-esteem, the feeling of command as well as regulation, as well as the feeling of belonging as well as connectedness. I say they’re problematic because nosotros know what drugs, sex, as well as violence do. Rock as well as roll, of course, is exempted. That is really, I think, what is most helpful for social workers because the residuum of the basis tends to sentiment drugs, sex, as well as violence inward a real sort of moralistic way. I mean, right, it’s dangerous, as well as it's destructive. That’s all true, but if you lot are going to aid somebody exit from nether these, I can’t think of them all but addictions of a for certain kind, you lot receive got to understand what the business office of the dysfunction is.
[22:50]
Jonathan Singer: Right. And you lot can’t say, “Well, you’re addicted to drugs because you lot are a morally deficit person.”
Tom Young: Right. [laughs] Actually somebody has in all probability already told them that, as well as for somebody who is, let’s only say, subject on—pick cocaine because it’s ane of those substances that makes you lot experience big, makes you lot experience good, makes you lot experience smart, as well as makes you lot experience happy. You know? It’s all the things you lot would hope happens without needing the cocaine. Right? If somebody is going to boot cocaine thence nosotros receive got to supply them with an choice experience that doesn’t involve the white powder.
[23:37]
Jonathan Singer: So would you lot say that cocaine provides an idealizing experience?
Tom Young: I think that’s a neat question. I think that recreational drugs tin supply multiple selfobject experiences. I hadn’t used that give-and-take selfobject before thence I receive got to backtrack a footling flake correct now, right? The cocaine becomes the self’s object because the self is using the cocaine to generate this enhanced feeling of strength. This is the idealizing part. It generates happiness, peradventure a for certain feeling of sort of togetherness, as well as cohesion. “I am on my game. I’m high but I’m on my game” sort of thing. And then, I don’t know whether it also has an affect on self-esteem. [laughs] I haven’t had that much experience personally with cocaine but I think that in that location is this sort of illusion of only skillful feeling that comes from it thence that’s what I hateful when I think a detail inwardness tin really generate to a greater extent than than ane selfobject experience. Sort of thinking out loud hither close violence as well as rage, I think rage is non thence much a twinship experience; an aggressive rage is really a substitute for feeling real vulnerable as well as real powerless, as well as in that location is nil quite similar rage to contrary that feeling.
[25:20]
Jonathan Singer: So let’s say you lot receive got a customer who comes inward who’s got addictions, who is aggressive—maybe this is a kid inward a juvenile jurist setting.
Tom Young: Sure.
[25:31]
Jonathan Singer: And you lot start to understand his province of affairs using these concepts. These are things that are a reflective of non getting for certain things developmentally. How does that plow into treatment? How does that plow into what you lot do? What exercise you lot exercise with that now?
Tom Young: [laughs] That’s a neat question, because I think this is the hardest constituent of the theory for most people because, get-go of all, our civilisation wants the violence to halt as well as wants them to halt using drugs, right, thence forthwith we’re sort of predisposed to wishing to alter this kid as well as his behavior. Secondly, nosotros powerfulness really be, I don’t know, peradventure frightened a footling flake or disgusted inward some sort of moral way with his behavior, depending on what shape the violence has taken. So what this theory asks us to exercise is to set all that wishing to alter him on a shelf or on a backburner as well as first, understand what is it similar for him. Right? I hateful how does he really experience when he hits somebody? What does it exercise for him? It’s almost similar a ho-hum displace replay procedure that I think is fundamental. I think it’s at the pump of empathy. Right? It’s similar nosotros expression at this demeanour from the outside, as well as nosotros think nosotros know what it way but that’s non really what is of import here. What is of import is to understand it from the inside. What is it similar for him? What are the kinds of situations, as well as the feelings, as well as the thought processes that he’s having leading upwards to scoring some drugs as well as using them. What sort of situations, what kinds of provocations precede a vehement episode on his part? How is he really feeling when someone calls him a racial slur or whatever sort of derogatory name? Because, only to carry on with this a footling bit, what I think oft happens is that in that location is this almost feeling of panic that the self is going to live on obliterated, taken over, controlled, or demolished inward some ways.
[28:27]
Jonathan Singer: So you lot understand the violence equally protective inward a sense like, “I am going to assault get-go before I am attacked. I am going to defend myself before somebody destroys me.”
Tom Young: Yes, that is some other way inward which the self psychology completely turns Freudian psychology on its head. Aggression is non master copy inward self psychology equally it is inward Freudian psychology. Aggression is a byproduct. It’s almost similar a intermission downwards product, right? If the self is non feeling safe, is non feeling cohesive, or appreciated thence violence is admittedly a poor substitute but it works. Right? So people hear close self psychology as well as normally when people similar me handgrip forth on it, nosotros brand a large bargain close empathy as well as most people start to yawn afterwards ii or 3 minutes, right, because they say, “Oh, empathy, yeah, nosotros know close empathy.” Well… [laughs] We don’t know close empathy. None of us really knows what it’s similar for some other someone until nosotros endeavour to understand that other someone as well as that other someone helps us understand them so, for example, I tell my students, “You know close your assessments as well as your handling plans? Until your customer feels, really feels that you lot acquire them, you lot don’t really receive got anything you lot tin count on because solely when a someone feels—like if I experience that you lot acquire me as well as that you lot appreciate me, I volition tell you lot things close me that I wouldn’t tell you lot until I felt that you lot got me.” So for this hypothetical kid that you lot are talking close inward the juvenile jurist organization with a tape of vehement demeanour as well as inwardness abuse, it won’t live on until he really feels inward some sort of emotionally prophylactic way that nosotros acquire him, it won’t live on until thence that he tells us how it is that he becomes vehement as well as how it is that he resorts to using drugs as well as when, as well as where, as well as then we tin formulate a handling plan. Right? We tin start to verbalize to him inward words that are non unique to self psychology. We tin start talking close triggers. We tin verbalize to him close starting to monitor his ain emotional reactions to things, fifty-fifty acquire him to predict when he’ll cross the line, when he goes into the blood-red zone. Then nosotros tin start to verbalize to him close it as well as say, “OK, thence nosotros know that going into the blood-red zone happens. We know what happens to you lot when you lot move into the blood-red zone. You acquire busted. You destination upwards talking to people similar me. Right? What would piece of work for you lot other than violence equally you lot are approaching the blood-red zone?” And what’s interesting close this is how people create their ain handling plans. I hateful they think of things that are much to a greater extent than effective as well as much to a greater extent than creative typically than nosotros do. We say, “Oh, well, acquire a punching bag.” Well, you lot know the kid’s non going to carry around a punching handbag around the neighborhood, right?
[31:50]
Jonathan Singer: That’s correct or, you lot know, come upwards up with your anger thermometer.
Tom Young: Exactly. So I think that is the hard thing for clinicians, clinical social workers, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses, I hateful for all of us really, is to acquire behind that demeanour as well as to really move that extra footstep inward agreement what’s going on within the person. If nosotros succeed with that thence we’re really working with the someone as well as finding ways for them to attain skillful feelings close themselves, the capacity to regulate their emotions as well as their behaviors, as well as the powerfulness to interact with other people inward a way that industrial plant for them, pregnant industrial plant for them thence that it keeps them out of that blood-red zone.
[32:46]
Jonathan Singer: So it sounds similar empathy is a fundamental concept as well as empathy is almost a tool to allow your customer to trust you—that you lot acquire them. I know inward social work, nosotros often verbalize close empathy inward price of Carl Rogers—genuineness, empathy, unconditional positive regard. Is in that location a way inward which self psychology understands or conceptualizes empathy differently?
Tom Young: Well, I don’t think it would live on radically different. What’s radical is in all probability the emphasis placed on it, the centrality of it, inward price of interventions that are derived from the theory. I don’t wishing to verbalize trash close the Rogerian thing. It’s to a greater extent than than repeating dorsum to the someone what they’ve said; it’s generating with words your agreement of a someone inward his or her context, which is both contemporary, “where they live on now,” but also historical. So, for example, when I run across with clients as well as I inquire them, going dorsum to this hypothetical province of affairs with the kid nosotros were talking close before, if nosotros acquire to talking close approaching the blood-red zone, ane enquiry I wishing to inquire is, “Now, I think this has happened to you lot lots of times inward your life. When was the get-go fourth dimension you lot call upwards coming upwards to this blood-red zone similar this?” So your empathy does deepen. The to a greater extent than you lot understand what a someone is really going through, the to a greater extent than you lot are entering his universe as well as leaving yours inward the waiting room someplace. This is also a hard thing for people as well as for clinicians to do, I think. It’s hard to sustain what Kohut referred to equally an empathic immersion inward someone else’s psychological life: psychologically understood both inward contemporary as well as historical context. It’s non tardily to do. We all receive got our ain brains. You can’t unhook them as well as disengage them land you lot are doing this thence it’s key to live on able to maintain yourself focused on this person’s experience, as well as agreement this person’s experience. So then, to acquire dorsum to your question, you’re right, empathy is non solely an assessment tool, but when the someone starts to experience it, it really has therapeutic effects fifty-fifty though nosotros are non fifty-fifty talking therapy or intervention, yet. We’re talking understanding, but the to a greater extent than a someone feels understood, equally nosotros were maxim before, the improve they business office fifty-fifty inward the moment.
[36:10]
Jonathan Singer: So that raises the question—assessment as well as thence intervention—are in that location things that are specific to self psychology inward price of intervention?
Tom Young: I don’t think there’s anything specific. I think that’s ane of the reasons why to my noesis self psychology has non generated a manualized handling that tin live on evaluated inward a measure enquiry fashion, but I exercise think that equally your agreement of the someone deepens inward this empathetic way nosotros were talking close before, that you lot laid out to take in both historically inward the person’s life as well as inward the way the someone interacts with you lot what that person’s self is seeking for most now. I don’t know how long it has been since you lot receive got worked with adolescent kids but I call upwards working with adolescent kids inward a psychiatric inpatient unit of measurement as well as you lot could tell which kids were starved for mirroring experiences. I hateful they volition tell you lot how wonderful they are for hours on destination as well as it’s really because they receive got been treated similar footling snots.
[37:42]
Jonathan Singer: Like they are non wonderful.
Tom Young: Like they are non wonderful. That’s right, as well as other kids volition sort of introduce themselves equally existence pretty much totally unregulated. I hateful nosotros say that they receive got impulse command problems, right? Well, that’s a someone that needs a strong figure to remain with them when they are feeling unregulated as well as figure out ways to deliver some of that comforting as well as calming… I mean, that musical note of voice, only the way you lot seat yourself physically with a kid. You don’t acquire inward his face. You sit down downwards amongst of him. You endeavour to initiate conversations like, “You’re looking a footling out of sorts. What’s going on?” You acquire a sort of conversation going where you lot really select the role of the idealized other, where you lot select the role of the self-esteem bringing mirror. Right? Or you lot select the role of only “being with,” especially for those kids who experience thence dissimilar from the residuum of the universe.
[39:00]
Jonathan Singer: So the handling procedure is really being those 3 types of self-objects.
Tom Young: That’s right. It’s to a greater extent than a therapy of existence than it is of doing.
[39:15]
Jonathan Singer: I tin take in how that would live on tough to manualize because you lot wouldn’t say, “Sessions 3 through 7: You are the mirroring object.” [laughs]
Tom Young: [laughs] Right.
[39:24]
Jonathan Singer: Because it wouldn’t brand whatever sense as well as you lot know, nosotros receive got been talking close kids but this handling tin piece of work for anybody because you lot said this is procedure that goes on throughout your life.
Tom Young: That’s right.
[39:38]
Jonathan Singer: Is this something you lot could utilisation with couples as well as families? Not only individuals?
Tom Young: Yes, I think so. In my ain work, I exercise take in many couples. And if you lot halt as well as think close the kinds of experiences that nosotros were talking close earlier, inward a spousal human relationship or it doesn’t fifty-fifty receive got to live on spousal human relationship but a committed long term relationship, it doesn’t receive got to live on heterosexual, it tin live on homosexual, what are some of the things nosotros are looking for from our partner? Aren’t nosotros looking for some sort of that credence that builds self-esteem? Aren’t nosotros looking for comfort when we’re disappointed as well as down? Aren’t nosotros looking for somebody that nosotros experience nosotros tin sort of navigate this basis with together, that nosotros belong with, as well as that belongs with us? So what I think happens with a lot of couples inward distress is that something has happened inward their life together that has made them fearful that they’re non going to acquire this from the other someone as well as equally shortly equally they acquire fearful that they are non going to acquire this from the other someone thence the other someone becomes similar the enemy. And thence the real foundations of intimacy acquire eroded past times this fright that the other someone is going to wound us rather than supply those kinds of experiences. So when I piece of work with couples I pass a lot of fourth dimension trying to say, “What’s your worst fright hither as well as isn’t that fright that you’re non going to acquire some of these skillful things?” This is truthful with families, too, I think. The funny thing close families is that some children tin remind their parents of the someone they were afraid they powerfulness move or the kid volition remind the parent of a sibling who has gone astray. What happens is that the parents inward a seat unit of measurement province of affairs start interacting with the kid out of fright that the kid is going to move something they don’t wishing the kid to become. Then that fright also erodes the procedure or compromises or corrodes the procedure of the kid getting the sort of self-esteem enhancing, the self-control building, as well as the interpersonal kinds of skills. So I think the theory tin underpin a lot of systemic work. For those of your listeners who are interested, I did endeavour to articulate that inward an article that was published inward the Social Service Review dorsum inward the early on 90s called, “Environmental Modification as well as the Self Psychological Perspective.” I think a lot of social workers destination upwards inward positions where they could aid systems recalibrate thence that the people inward those systems would acquire to a greater extent than of the sort of self-enhancing experiences with each other rather than this fearful, fright based distancing sort of interactions with each other. I think I observe it a pretty versatile theory inward price of working with children, with adolescents, with adults individually, or inward couples, or equally parts of seat unit of measurement systems. Other people receive got applied it to working with groups. I receive got non done that. It’s sort of interesting to think close how inward a grouping experience equally sort of equally envisioned past times Yalom, to think who underneath that grouping procedure would live on getting these kinds of experiences, as well as what a grouping facilitator could exercise to arrive possible for the grouping members to supply them to each other? So I think that in that location is an application there, too, although it’s non something that I am especially knowledgeable about.
[44:05]
Jonathan Singer: Are in that location resources that you lot tin recommend for folks who wishing to know more? We tin set links to those on the Social Work Podcast website.
Tom Young: Ok. Well, this could acquire a footling autobiographical here. I solely met Heinz Kohut once, but I knew his married adult woman for close 3 years. During a detail stressful fourth dimension inward my life, I was seeing her for counseling or therapy. Betty Kohut was her name. She was a social worker, as well as she had a real unopen friend named Miriam Elson who was also a social worker. Miriam Elson really worked professionally with Heinz Kohut equally good equally existence friends with him socially, as well as she’s written a majority called Self Psychology inward Clinical Social Work. I hateful it could peradventure fifty-fifty live on close xv years quondam at nowadays but it’s yet available. It’s inward paperback as well as I think it’s published past times Norton. And thence there’s a majority that Helene Jackson edited, the exact championship of which escapes me at the moment, but people similar that because each chapter applies the theory to piece of work with a dissimilar population thence that you lot tin acquire to a greater extent than target work focused inward that majority than you lot tin inward the ane past times Miriam Elson. There is a serial that a lot of people don’t know close that I think is real valuable called Progress inward Self Psychology. I think that’s set out past times The Analytic Press. It was edited past times a adult man named Arnold Goldberg for years. He doesn’t exercise it anymore, but Goldberg was collaborator as well as contemporary of Kohut’s. Every twelvemonth in that location were annual conferences inward self psychology. People came as well as gave papers applying the theory to dissimilar situations as well as those papers thence got compiled inward this serial called Progress inward Self Psychology. I think it is ane of the richest sources for people who really wishing to know, “How exercise I utilisation this stuff?”
[46:35]
Jonathan Singer: That’s great. Well, nosotros volition set links to those on the Social Work Podcast and, of course, whatever of the materials that you lot receive got published, we’ll set links to those on in that location equally well.
Tom Young: Great.
[46:46]
Jonathan Singer: So what are some of the limitations of self psychology?
Tom Young: Well, I think a large limitation inward our electrical flow era is that everybody wants a prepare for whatever ane of the disorders inward the DSM. Right? I hateful if you lot receive got anxiety, if you lot receive got depression, if you lot receive got OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, or panic with or without agoraphobia, as well as on as well as on as well as on, it makes perfect sense that everyone would wishing to know, look, isn’t in that location a handling for this? Isn’t in that location an intervention that fixes this?
[47:30]
Jonathan Singer: Right, similar dialectical demeanour therapy for women with borderline personality disorder who self-harm?
Tom Young: Exactly. In all fairness to self psychology, it was non developed with that goal inward mind. So a potential limitation is that if you lot are looking to sort of cure schizophrenia or reconstruct a borderline personality disorder [laughs] or eliminate panic attacks with self psychology, that’s a waste materials of fourth dimension because self psychology really is an empowering psychology. So the someone is ever bigger than, to a greater extent than than the symptom or the disorder, as well as what self psychology is trying to exercise is to empower the self that’s contending with the disorder or the diagnosis. So fifty-fifty a someone struggling with schizophrenia tin live on related to or interacted with inward a way that is guided past times self psychology as well as if it’s done inward the way that we’ve been talking close before thence the someone struggling with schizophrenia feels empowered to bargain with his or her schizophrenia as well as similarly for the other disorders that were mentioned. Lots of fourth dimension I think as well as I don’t understand precisely why this is, peradventure only because it came out of psychoanalysis, but people sometimes criticize self psychology for existence a deficit model as well as I approximate it is because, you lot know, the absence of mirroring developmentally or the absence of idealizing leads to a sort of psychoanalytic basis sentiment with structural deficits inward the personality. Yeah, you lot tin move in that location but I don’t think Kohut was coming from that seat at all. He was coming from what is every self striving for. Every self seeks to live on healthy. Every self wants these kinds of experiences because it makes you lot a to a greater extent than vibrant, a to a greater extent than cohesive, a to a greater extent than productive, a to a greater extent than creative person. That’s the way all selves wishing to live on thence I take in the theory non equally a deficit model but to a greater extent than equally a strength based model really with a focus on empowering the self no affair with what the self is contending with inward price of these other kinds of disorders.
[50:05]
Jonathan Singer: And that really fits with social work.
Tom Young: I think so.
[50:08]
Jonathan Singer: Yeah, because social work, the way that it is existence taught these days, the ways that it has been taught for xv to twenty years is “focus on strengths,” the strengths perspective, focus on what your customer brings to the table, resilience, as well as all those sorts of things. And it sounds similar self psychology from your agreement as well as how nosotros receive got talked close it really fits good with that.
Tom Young: I couldn’t handgrip to a greater extent than as well as I am thence glad you lot mentioned resilience because I think the resilience enquiry converges on this theoretical formulation of self psychology. If you lot acquire these kinds of experiences that nosotros receive got been talking about, you lot are a to a greater extent than resilient someone no affair what your circumstances are.
[50:45]
Jonathan Singer: So that could live on ane of the reasons why somebody who is at jeopardy could live on resilient because they had these experiences of somebody mirroring their goodness as well as who was able to over years supply them with that.
Tom Young: Exactly, as well as nosotros telephone yell upwards them protective factors. [laughs] Right?
[51:07]
Jonathan Singer: [laughs] That’s right, the protective factors.
Tom Young: Protective factors inward the jeopardy as well as resilience framework. Right.
[51:15]
Jonathan Singer: Well, Tom, this has been great. Thank you lot thence much for taking fourth dimension out inward talking with us close self psychology. I really appreciate the insight into the model as well as I hope that folks out in that location listening acquire equally excited close it equally I am.
Tom Young: That’s great, Jonathan. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you lot real much.
End
Transcript generously donated past times Amy Smith, early childhood special didactics paraprofessional.
References as well as Resources
- Young, T. M. (1994). Environmental modification inward clinical social work: Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 Self-psychological perspective Social Service Review, 68, 202-218
- Progress inward self-psychology (1985 through 2004): https://www.pep-web.org/toc.php?journal=psp International Journal inward Psychoanalytic Self-Psychology (2006 - present) https://www.pep-web.org/toc.php?journal=ijpsp
APA (6th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2016, Nov 1). #107 - Self Psychology for Social Workers: Interview with Tom Young, Ph.D. [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from /search?q=briggs
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