[Episode 72] Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast explores the query of what makes psychodynamic theory a valuable approach for working with vulnerable as well as oppressed populations. I was excited to verbalise with my guest, Joan Berzoff, professor of social piece of work at Smith College, because she's an proficient on psychodynamic practise as well as addresses this real number inwards her 2012 edited text, Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations, published past times Columbia University Press. In today's interview I asked Dr. Berzoff, what makes psychodynamic theory a valuable or useful approach for working with vulnerable, at-risk, as well as oppressed populations? Why should therapists live concerned virtually that which is symbolic inwards a client's life? Dr. Berzoff talked virtually the value of curiosity inwards psychotherapy; the exercise of insight; applications of psychodynamic theory to school-based programs; why don't people intend of basic social piece of work practise every bit psychodynamic; as well as how to conceptualize the role of insight-oriented piece of work with clients whose basic needs are non beingness met.
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Contact
Website: http://www.smith.edu/ssw/faculty_berzoff.php
Bio (from the Smith College website)
Joan Berzoff currently teaches inwards the doctoral, masters, as well as end-of-life attention programs. She directs the End of Life certificate program. She formerly served every bit the co-director of the doctoral computer programme as well as earlier that every bit the chair of the human conduct inwards the social surroundings sequence at Smith, which she forthwith co-chairs. She has co-edited 6 books: Inside Out as well as Outside In: Psychodynamic Theories inwards Multicultural Contexts, Editions 1, 2 as well as 3; Dissociative Identity Disorders: the Controversy inwards the Diagnosis as well as Treatment (1995); Living with Dying: Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 Handbook for End of Life Care Practitioners published inwards 2004, as well as Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations, published inwards 2011.
Dr. Berzoff has written over 25 articles on a gain of subjects including: women's development; intersubjectivity; curriculum development; women's friendships; death, dying as well as bereavement; psychodynamic theory as well as practice; trauma; pity fatigue; computer programme evaluation; telephonic teaching; end-of-life attention curriculum; as well as disenfranchised populations. She has also been a visiting professor at the Sanville Institute inwards Los Angeles as well as at the University of Pennsylvania doctoral program. Berzoff was the recipient of 1 of the start Social Work Leader Awards from the Project on Death inwards America funded past times the Soros foundation as well as was a recipient of the Outstanding Scholar Award from the National Academies of Practice. She was also the only social worker serving on the Compassionate Care Advisory Board for Aetna. In 2009 she received the Outstanding Teaching Award from the Massachusetts chapter of NASW. She is inwards private practise inwards Northampton, where she industrial plant with adults as well as lectures nationally as well as internationally on issues of decease as well as dying, women's issues as well as psychodynamic theory as well as practise with multicultural as well as vulnerable populations.
Download MP3 [30:15]
TRANSCRIPT
Introduction
Jonathan Singer: Today's episode of the Social Work Podcast explores the query of what makes psychodynamic theory a valuable approach for working with vulnerable as well as oppressed populations. I was excited to verbalise with my guest, Joan Berzoff, professor of social piece of work at Smith College, because she's an proficient on psychodynamic practise as well as I... am not. When I intend virtually working with vulnerable as well as oppressed populations, for instance mothers struggling with addiction or who are incarcerated, or returning vets who are debilitated past times anxiety, depression, PTSD symptomology, or thoughts of suicide, I’m non thinking "boy, I improve exercise psychodynamic therapy."
It’s non that I don’t know virtually these concepts. Listeners of the podcast volition know that inwards Episode 54, Carol Tosone did a neat task of addressing the relevance of psychoanalytic handling inwards contemporary social piece of work practice. But I genuinely wanted some details. How do I exercise psychodynamic concepts similar "symbolic communication," "insight," "enactment as well as reenactment," as well as "transference as well as countertransference," to assist my clients? Psychodynamic practise has a reputation for looking dorsum rather than looking forwards (Reynolds, 1965 cited inwards Berzoff, 2012), for favoring long-term handling as well as personality alter over practical solutions to concrete problems.
I thought Dr. Berzoff would live a goodness individual to respond my questions because she has argued pretty convincingly that psychodynamic practise isn’t precisely virtually looking inward as well as looking back, it is virtually taking a 365 score perspective on a person’s life, looking within out as well as exterior in. Dr. Berzoff addressed this number inwards neat special inwards her 2012 edited text, Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations, published past times Columbia University Press. Dr. Berzoff as well as her contributors render detailed instance examples, exploration as well as explanation of psychodynamic practise with people struggling with addiction, involvement with the kid welfare system, the stigma of incarceration, serious mental illness, physical disability, as well as oppression past times virtue of beingness a racial or sexual minority. If these sound similar topics you'd typically honour inwards whatever social piece of work practise text, I intend that's intentional. What's non typical is how Dr. Berzoff's authors approach these topics. Yes, they exercise concepts from drive theory, ego psychology, object relations, trauma theory, attachment theory, self psychology, relational theories, as well as intersubjectivity, to empathize their client's situations. But, what surprised me the most is that for a clinical practise text, Falling Through the Cracks is a surprisingly intimate read. The authors portion non only their client's stories, but also their personal struggles with clients (in psychodynamic linguistic communication their "countertransference reactions"). Each chapter has a narrative arc that draws inwards the reader. For those of us without clinical preparation inwards psychodynamic therapy, these chapters demystify the procedure of exploring the client's internal world, managing the therapeutic relationship, as well as addressing the enactment as well as reenactment of trauma as well as microagressions with their clients (Berzoff, 2012).
So, you lot mightiness live wondering: "if this text is so neat at answering the query of why psychodynamic practise is valuable for working with vulnerable as well as oppressed populations, why am I shout out for Dr. Berzoff instead of precisely reading her book?" Great question. Dr. Berzoff as well as I spoke earlier her text was published – if you lot take away heed closely you lot tin hear that at 1 betoken I tell "So, you lot have got this text coming out…" I'm glad nosotros talked earlier I read the text. We had a neat conversation. And I acquire to portion it with you. A twosome of notes virtually today's interview. First, it was recorded using Skype. Joan was inwards Northampton, MA as well as I was inwards Philadelphia, PA. There are a twosome of places where the sound lineament gets glitchy. It isn't a deal-breaker, but I thought I'd give you lot fair warning. Second, Joan as well as I had a much longer conversation than is presented here. The balance of our conversation focused on the exercise of instance studies every bit both a tool for clinical instruction as well as every bit a shape of empirical evidence, as well as some of the myths as well as misunderstandings of psychodynamic practice. Those volition live published inwards hereafter episodes of the Social Work Podcast. And so, without farther ado, on to Episode 72 of the Social Work Podcast, Psychodynamic practise with vulnerable as well as oppressed populations: An interview with Joan Berzoff, Ed.D., MSW.
Interview
Jonathan Singer: Joan, thank you lot so much for beingness hither on the podcast talking with us today virtually psychodynamic theory as well as vulnerable at adventure as well as oppressed populations as well as my start query for you lot is what makes psychodynamic theory a valuable or useful approach to working with vulnerable at adventure or oppressed populations?
Joan Berzoff: Psychodynamic theory gives us a way of looking into a client's heart, a client's heed as well as if nosotros don't have got cognition of psychodynamic theory, nosotros are express to the surface, to the manifest as well as we're form of blind inwards what may live going on relationally as well as what may live going on symbolically.
Jonathan Singer: And so what is the value of beingness able to facial expression at what's underneath, what they're bringing to us or what's symbolic virtually what's going on inwards their lives.
Joan Berzoff: Okay. Well, give thank you lot you for shout out for that query because I volition respond it with an instance of a pupil inwards a post-master's computer programme inwards which I taught who was working with an African-American mother. He was a schoolhouse social worker. He is African-American himself as well as the woman raise came to him for the 2nd fourth dimension having seen him 5 years earlier as well as popped into his business office quite unexpectedly. She popped inwards to tell that she was real worried virtually her forthwith 5th score miss who had witnessed domestic violence, her married adult man cutting himself later on he had physically abuse her. And so the pupil said, “You demand to acquire out of there. You demand to leave of absence correct forthwith as well as select your miss with you.” But the customer was unable to do so as well as although one's task is to render security first, the customer had no thought virtually what was keeping her inwards this human relationship as well as why she was tied to a human relationship that was so abusive as well as so hurtful to her. So, upon farther exploration, it turned out that this was a adult woman who had had a physically abusive manly individual raise who had been vehement towards her ain mother. Her woman raise had been able to leave of absence the human relationship inwards a way that she was non able to leave of absence her husband. The manly individual raise was live as well as basically told this 37-year-old adult woman that she was inwards fact worthy of the abuse as well as that he sure wasn't going to render shelter or assist for her to leave of absence the relationship, so she was internally tied to what nosotros telephone yell upward a bad object. She genuinely thought she was worthy of the abuse. She genuinely didn't experience that she couldn't leave of absence nor did she have got some of the developmental capacities to leave of absence as well as precisely become start a novel life. She had enormous difficulty with beingness alone. She had a lot of difficulty with feeling that others were within of her as well as with her. So, the injunction from the pupil to precisely solve the employment as well as become didn't select into occupation concern human relationship a complex internal Blue Planet inwards which again, she felt that she was unworthy of beingness divide as well as beingness indivduated. She was unable to regard herself every bit anything but bad as well as missing that the practitioner was frustrated as well as angry with her as well as somewhat disgusted past times her passivity as well as she felt real misunderstood as well as non specially helped. So, I justice what I'm maxim virtually this boyfriend is that he didn't have got cognition of trauma theory. He didn't have got cognition of her internalized object world. He didn't have got cognition of why she was repeating inwards the acquaint that what she couldn't master copy inwards the past times as well as without that knowledge, he was express to the surface as well as to the concrete as well as to giving her an injunction as well as and so beingness real frustrated that she couldn't brand exercise of it.
Jonathan Singer: So, what you're maxim is that psychodynamic theory is valuable inwards component subdivision because it gives the social worker permission to live curious virtually all the things that mightiness live going on inwards the background that would locomote along somebody tell inwards a domestic violence province of affairs or forestall them from doing something that on the surface seems to live a healthier decision.
Joan Berzoff: It demands our curiosity virtually sort of the multiple ideologies as well as complexities that concur people inwards untenable situations that are ofttimes both psychological as well as also social. The other ground why she couldn't leave of absence why she was a adult woman is non working exterior of the home. She was a adult woman who had nowhere to become as well as she was a adult woman who didn't have got the resources emotionally or financially to live able to only upward as well as leave. So, you lot know, I intend the other slice of that psychodynamic theory is that it holds the complexity of both her social realities every bit good every bit her psychological internal compulsions to repeat that which she could non master.
Jonathan Singer: Can you lot verbalise a petty flake to a greater extent than virtually how psychodynamic theory helps folks to empathize the social as well as environmental context?
Joan Berzoff: There are many ways to respond that, but 1 way that I intend I'll start has to do with what psychodynamic theory addresses when nosotros intend virtually discrimination, oppression, prejudice. There are many psychodynamic theories that genuinely assist us to empathize for instance why nosotros scapegoat, why nosotros – other people, why nosotros exercise defenses such every bit projection or projective identification to acquire exterior of ourselves, those parts of ourselves that are intolerable as well as set them onto as well as into other people as well as and so seek to command them.
Jonathan Singer: Okay. How would you lot exercise that insight when working with either clients or let's tell you're fifty-fifty doing to a greater extent than sort of mezzo bird piece of work similar you're the manager of a social service way as well as you lot know you lot have got – you lot know, you're directing a specific program, how would those theories or sorry, non those theories – how would that theory that agreement of where-isms come upward from inform what you lot do as well as the programs that you lot create to assist these vulnerable at adventure as well as oppressed populations?
Joan Berzoff: Well, let's see, I'm thinking a petty less psychodynamically as well as a petty to a greater extent than virtually the educational organization inwards America at this moment, but how do nosotros empathize the lack of resources, the social as well as systemic inequalities. Let's tell we're running/directing a computer programme inwards the schools. I intend that a psychodynamic agreement of what kids experience 24-hour interval to 24-hour interval inwards inner metropolis schools requires many things. It requires agreement how a child's sense of trust may live undermined, how a child's physical lack of security may atomic number 82 to difficulties regulating emotions inwards the classroom. We mightiness desire to facial expression at how a child's beingness inwards as well as out of foster homes mightiness inwards fact alter that child's attachment capacities as well as thence neurobiological capacities to regulate him or herself inwards the classroom. We demand to know virtually whether a kid has been provided a belongings environment, that is whether emotional needs despite grinding poverty similar racism has been provided as well as many belongings environments are provided past times many parents or raise surrogates which enable a kid to function. We demand to know virtually how a kid has coped inwards the past times as well as how that kid is coping forthwith inwards the classroom. We demand to know something virtually a child's sense of wholeness or fragmentation as well as nosotros demand to know, again, virtually the neurobiology of that kid as well as the score to which the kid tin bargain with stimulation or has been understimulated. We know that traumatized kids may have got enormous difficulty regulating emotion for instance as well as so perhaps overstimulated, may non live able to sit down withal inwards a classroom, may have got rage reactions, perhaps unable to tolerate frustration as well as so when we're thinking virtually how do you lot piece of work – how do you lot develop a computer programme inwards the schools for example, 1 needs to know virtually a child's neurobiology, the score to which he or she has a disorganized attachment style, the score to which he or she tin brand exercise of a human relationship or may experience a human relationship every bit disorganizing or overwhelming or threatening or dangerous. So, all of these things are e'er interacting inwards a classroom as well as so a mezzo bird supervisor or a computer programme developer needs to live aware of children's neurobiology, children's access to nutrition, children's inner lives, what is driving them, the ways inwards which they're coping or not, again, as well as also the score to which they have got access to an average expectable surroundings inwards which needs volition live met or won't live met as well as also the score to which the surroundings as well as specially the schoolhouse surroundings tin serve every bit providing what the child's surroundings may not, holding, containing, providing resources, mentors, others, teachers inwards the surroundings who may render stability as well as continuity, curiosity, involvement that a kid may non have got inwards his or her world.
Jonathan Singer: Everything that you've said sounds...
Joan Berzoff: ... So obvious! [laughs].
Jonathan Singer: It sounds so obvious [laughs]. You know, you lot desire to brand sure that the kid has a rubber as well as supportive surroundings at domicile as well as at schoolhouse as well as that if they're having difficulties inwards their relationships, that you lot empathize why that is as well as thence what you lot tin do to address that, that the expectations of the adults to a greater extent than or less them as well as the peers are consistent with what the kid tin meet, you lot know, how they tin best interact with each other and, you lot know, this sounds so obvious, so I justice the query is if these–
Joan Berzoff: Why is that – yeah.
Jonathan Singer: No, become ahead.
Joan Berzoff: No. Why is that psychodynamic?
Jonathan Singer: Yeah. Well, why is that psychodynamic as well as if it psychodynamic, why is it that people don't intend of it every bit psychodynamic?
Joan Berzoff: Mary Richmond was talking virtually this inwards 1917. She literally talks virtually how the ghosts of the past times inhabit the acquaint as well as how nosotros demand to concur that cognition inwards working with whatever client, live they an immigrant, live they deserted, live they a widow, whomever. We demand to have got some cognition virtually how the ancestors of the past times come inwards into the acquaint as well as that's basically social work, but that's also psychodynamically informed social piece of work as well as I intend that component subdivision of the trouble, component subdivision of the danger is that when students are exhorted to do solution-focused work, they are non asked to intend virtually the ancestors or the ghosts that inhabit a person's experience as well as so they're ofttimes encouraged to precisely laid upward a employment without an appreciation for who the individual is inwards the surroundings with the problem. But psychodynamic theory is social work. It's non something other than social piece of work as well as it's every bit early on every bit our social piece of work ancestors began. The School for Social Work at Smith started every bit a schoolhouse inwards response to trauma as well as it was the trauma of World War I as well as it started with a belief that 1 needed to know why ii people who had experienced the same trauma, internalized, metabolized that trauma so differently based on who that individual was, how that individual came to live constituted psychologically as well as socially. So, this is non novel as well as it is real much at the pump of social work.
I intend likely the only psychodynamic theory that's beingness taught forthwith every bit far every bit I could regard inwards my recent lecture at the University of Texas is attachment theory which is necessary but non sufficient, who empathize how the social piece of work – I'm sorry, how the social world, comes to live metabolized differently past times every private as well as how trauma comes to live metabolized differently past times every individual. And so piece I applaud that attachment theory is beingness inwards taught inwards schools for social work, I intend a neat bargain of the richness as well as the texture of what social piece of work students have got traditionally learned as well as demand to know has been lost inwards the elbow grease to solve problems, inwards the elbow grease to piece of work harder as well as harder as well as faster as well as faster as well as inwards the drift that nosotros have got towards manualized treatments that process the employment but non the individual with the employment inwards the surroundings inwards which that individual lives.
Jonathan Singer: So, you lot have got this text coming out [Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations, published inwards 2012 past times Columbia University Press] on– Joan Berzoff: I do.
Jonathan Singer: And we've touched on precisely a twosome of topics hither today as well as I'm wondering is at that topographic point anything that you lot have got written virtually inwards the text that you lot intend is genuinely a primal or essential thought for people to live aware of–
Joan Berzoff: I intend 1 of the of import driving forces that made me write this textbook had to do with your start query which is why is psychodynamic theory relevant to populations at adventure as well as nosotros ofttimes hear a devaluation of or an eschewing of psychodynamic theory every bit if it's precisely for the “worried well” or it's precisely for people with privilege as well as so because inwards my 31-year career has been virtually teaching students why nosotros tin exercise psychodynamic theories with those who are most vulnerable as well as most at risk, I wanted to create a textbook that would render instance studies inwards which psychodynamic theory was non only necessary but crucial to agreement clients inwards their social context. So, at that topographic point are chapters virtually prisoners which inquire the query why would a prisoner who is you lot know hold upward released from prison theatre compelled to commit some other criminal offense so he tin become dorsum to the security as well as security of a prison theatre or why do – let's see. Why do women who are homeless as well as who are coming out of incarceration have got such a hard fourth dimension maintaining relationships with their children as well as at that topographic point are real complex reasons that are biopsychosocial or why for an example, what are the effects of a province similar Republic of Bulgaria on children who are institutionalized past times the province itself so that mothers experience disempowered as well as unable to attach to or attention for their children. There are eighteen chapters. All of them are vulnerable as well as at adventure populations on the solid set down of race or shape or linguistic communication or ethnicity or civilisation or condition every bit individual who is gay or lesbian or again, a condition that has to do with disability such every bit deafness or blindness or cognitive damage or at that topographic point are cases that – at that topographic point are chapters that are virtually the chronically mentally sick as well as the betoken of the majority is that psychodynamic theory is absolutely crucial to whatever services are beingness provided every bit we've been talking virtually as well as again, the majority provides rich rich instance studies to illustrate why psychodynamic theory as well as practise are so necessary to agreement something every bit daunting as well as complex every bit some other human being.
Jonathan Singer: How do you lot conceptualize the role of insight oriented piece of work with clients who have got basic needs that are non met?
Joan Berzoff: I'm thinking virtually you lot know you lot tin give a housing voucher to ii clients as well as 1 may have got it as well as regard it every bit a sign of assist as well as thence appreciate that help. Someone else may regard it every bit a sign of their – every bit a sign of devaluation, a sign of their worthlessness as well as may turn down the housing voucher as well as it's of import to empathize sort of the unconscious motivation to a greater extent than or less the credence or the disallow of the housing voucher or 5 people tin live given medication as well as 1 may regard it every bit something to select every bit a sign of promise as well as someone else may regard it every bit a danger to select within one's self as well as someone else may regard it as, again, a sign of hopelessness. So, agreement the most basic underlying reasons why people may or may non have got our services is essential to providing services. I would also fence that psychodynamic practise is non only organized to a greater extent than or less insight, but also to a greater extent than or less facilitating clients' capacities, their strengths so that it's non only virtually insight but it's virtually mastery as well as virtually again, how do nosotros assist develop as well as facilitate the best capacities the clients have got and, you lot know, this includes looking at psychological issues but it also includes looking at powerfulness issues as well as issues of disenfranchisement as well as oppression based on race as well as gender, shape as well as culture.
Jonathan Singer: So, it sounds similar it tin live a genuinely fascinating text for folks. Either those who already have got a psychodynamic framework to their practise or those who were–
Joan Berzoff: Who don't. Yes.
Jonathan Singer: Who don't, which is likely the audience you're writing it for.
Joan Berzoff: It's a petty similar within out. I don't know whether you lot know.
Jonathan Singer: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Joan Berzoff: Yeah. But that majority was genuinely written for people who either did or did non have got whatever psychodynamic background as well as it was – again, it was our start elbow grease to tell that psychodynamic theory was absolutely essential for multicultural clients as well as this is an extension inwards damage of so what does the practise genuinely facial expression similar as well as what are people genuinely doing inwards the plain had the psychodynamic practise facial expression as well as had the psychodynamic theory inform socially complex practice.
Jonathan Singer: So, again, Joan you've made a number of you lot know compelling arguments for the importance of psychodynamic theory inwards working with that adventure populations. Thanks so much for beingness with us today as well as talking virtually psychodynamic theory as well as at adventure populations. I genuinely appreciate you lot taking the time.
Joan Berzoff: And it was a pleasance talking with you.
END
References as well as resources
APA (6th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Host). (2012, June 25). Psychodynamic therapy for vulnerable, at-risk as well as oppressed populations: Interview with Joan Berzoff, M.S.W., Ed.D. [Episode 72]. Social Work Podcast. Podcast retrieved Month Day, Year, from /search?q=psychodynamic-therapy-with-vulnerable
Interview
Jonathan Singer: Joan, thank you lot so much for beingness hither on the podcast talking with us today virtually psychodynamic theory as well as vulnerable at adventure as well as oppressed populations as well as my start query for you lot is what makes psychodynamic theory a valuable or useful approach to working with vulnerable at adventure or oppressed populations?
Joan Berzoff: Psychodynamic theory gives us a way of looking into a client's heart, a client's heed as well as if nosotros don't have got cognition of psychodynamic theory, nosotros are express to the surface, to the manifest as well as we're form of blind inwards what may live going on relationally as well as what may live going on symbolically.
Jonathan Singer: And so what is the value of beingness able to facial expression at what's underneath, what they're bringing to us or what's symbolic virtually what's going on inwards their lives.
Joan Berzoff: Okay. Well, give thank you lot you for shout out for that query because I volition respond it with an instance of a pupil inwards a post-master's computer programme inwards which I taught who was working with an African-American mother. He was a schoolhouse social worker. He is African-American himself as well as the woman raise came to him for the 2nd fourth dimension having seen him 5 years earlier as well as popped into his business office quite unexpectedly. She popped inwards to tell that she was real worried virtually her forthwith 5th score miss who had witnessed domestic violence, her married adult man cutting himself later on he had physically abuse her. And so the pupil said, “You demand to acquire out of there. You demand to leave of absence correct forthwith as well as select your miss with you.” But the customer was unable to do so as well as although one's task is to render security first, the customer had no thought virtually what was keeping her inwards this human relationship as well as why she was tied to a human relationship that was so abusive as well as so hurtful to her. So, upon farther exploration, it turned out that this was a adult woman who had had a physically abusive manly individual raise who had been vehement towards her ain mother. Her woman raise had been able to leave of absence the human relationship inwards a way that she was non able to leave of absence her husband. The manly individual raise was live as well as basically told this 37-year-old adult woman that she was inwards fact worthy of the abuse as well as that he sure wasn't going to render shelter or assist for her to leave of absence the relationship, so she was internally tied to what nosotros telephone yell upward a bad object. She genuinely thought she was worthy of the abuse. She genuinely didn't experience that she couldn't leave of absence nor did she have got some of the developmental capacities to leave of absence as well as precisely become start a novel life. She had enormous difficulty with beingness alone. She had a lot of difficulty with feeling that others were within of her as well as with her. So, the injunction from the pupil to precisely solve the employment as well as become didn't select into occupation concern human relationship a complex internal Blue Planet inwards which again, she felt that she was unworthy of beingness divide as well as beingness indivduated. She was unable to regard herself every bit anything but bad as well as missing that the practitioner was frustrated as well as angry with her as well as somewhat disgusted past times her passivity as well as she felt real misunderstood as well as non specially helped. So, I justice what I'm maxim virtually this boyfriend is that he didn't have got cognition of trauma theory. He didn't have got cognition of her internalized object world. He didn't have got cognition of why she was repeating inwards the acquaint that what she couldn't master copy inwards the past times as well as without that knowledge, he was express to the surface as well as to the concrete as well as to giving her an injunction as well as and so beingness real frustrated that she couldn't brand exercise of it.
Jonathan Singer: So, what you're maxim is that psychodynamic theory is valuable inwards component subdivision because it gives the social worker permission to live curious virtually all the things that mightiness live going on inwards the background that would locomote along somebody tell inwards a domestic violence province of affairs or forestall them from doing something that on the surface seems to live a healthier decision.
Joan Berzoff: It demands our curiosity virtually sort of the multiple ideologies as well as complexities that concur people inwards untenable situations that are ofttimes both psychological as well as also social. The other ground why she couldn't leave of absence why she was a adult woman is non working exterior of the home. She was a adult woman who had nowhere to become as well as she was a adult woman who didn't have got the resources emotionally or financially to live able to only upward as well as leave. So, you lot know, I intend the other slice of that psychodynamic theory is that it holds the complexity of both her social realities every bit good every bit her psychological internal compulsions to repeat that which she could non master.
Jonathan Singer: Can you lot verbalise a petty flake to a greater extent than virtually how psychodynamic theory helps folks to empathize the social as well as environmental context?
Joan Berzoff: There are many ways to respond that, but 1 way that I intend I'll start has to do with what psychodynamic theory addresses when nosotros intend virtually discrimination, oppression, prejudice. There are many psychodynamic theories that genuinely assist us to empathize for instance why nosotros scapegoat, why nosotros – other people, why nosotros exercise defenses such every bit projection or projective identification to acquire exterior of ourselves, those parts of ourselves that are intolerable as well as set them onto as well as into other people as well as and so seek to command them.
Jonathan Singer: Okay. How would you lot exercise that insight when working with either clients or let's tell you're fifty-fifty doing to a greater extent than sort of mezzo bird piece of work similar you're the manager of a social service way as well as you lot know you lot have got – you lot know, you're directing a specific program, how would those theories or sorry, non those theories – how would that theory that agreement of where-isms come upward from inform what you lot do as well as the programs that you lot create to assist these vulnerable at adventure as well as oppressed populations?
Joan Berzoff: Well, let's see, I'm thinking a petty less psychodynamically as well as a petty to a greater extent than virtually the educational organization inwards America at this moment, but how do nosotros empathize the lack of resources, the social as well as systemic inequalities. Let's tell we're running/directing a computer programme inwards the schools. I intend that a psychodynamic agreement of what kids experience 24-hour interval to 24-hour interval inwards inner metropolis schools requires many things. It requires agreement how a child's sense of trust may live undermined, how a child's physical lack of security may atomic number 82 to difficulties regulating emotions inwards the classroom. We mightiness desire to facial expression at how a child's beingness inwards as well as out of foster homes mightiness inwards fact alter that child's attachment capacities as well as thence neurobiological capacities to regulate him or herself inwards the classroom. We demand to know virtually whether a kid has been provided a belongings environment, that is whether emotional needs despite grinding poverty similar racism has been provided as well as many belongings environments are provided past times many parents or raise surrogates which enable a kid to function. We demand to know virtually how a kid has coped inwards the past times as well as how that kid is coping forthwith inwards the classroom. We demand to know something virtually a child's sense of wholeness or fragmentation as well as nosotros demand to know, again, virtually the neurobiology of that kid as well as the score to which the kid tin bargain with stimulation or has been understimulated. We know that traumatized kids may have got enormous difficulty regulating emotion for instance as well as so perhaps overstimulated, may non live able to sit down withal inwards a classroom, may have got rage reactions, perhaps unable to tolerate frustration as well as so when we're thinking virtually how do you lot piece of work – how do you lot develop a computer programme inwards the schools for example, 1 needs to know virtually a child's neurobiology, the score to which he or she has a disorganized attachment style, the score to which he or she tin brand exercise of a human relationship or may experience a human relationship every bit disorganizing or overwhelming or threatening or dangerous. So, all of these things are e'er interacting inwards a classroom as well as so a mezzo bird supervisor or a computer programme developer needs to live aware of children's neurobiology, children's access to nutrition, children's inner lives, what is driving them, the ways inwards which they're coping or not, again, as well as also the score to which they have got access to an average expectable surroundings inwards which needs volition live met or won't live met as well as also the score to which the surroundings as well as specially the schoolhouse surroundings tin serve every bit providing what the child's surroundings may not, holding, containing, providing resources, mentors, others, teachers inwards the surroundings who may render stability as well as continuity, curiosity, involvement that a kid may non have got inwards his or her world.
Jonathan Singer: Everything that you've said sounds...
Joan Berzoff: ... So obvious! [laughs].
Jonathan Singer: It sounds so obvious [laughs]. You know, you lot desire to brand sure that the kid has a rubber as well as supportive surroundings at domicile as well as at schoolhouse as well as that if they're having difficulties inwards their relationships, that you lot empathize why that is as well as thence what you lot tin do to address that, that the expectations of the adults to a greater extent than or less them as well as the peers are consistent with what the kid tin meet, you lot know, how they tin best interact with each other and, you lot know, this sounds so obvious, so I justice the query is if these–
Joan Berzoff: Why is that – yeah.
Jonathan Singer: No, become ahead.
Joan Berzoff: No. Why is that psychodynamic?
Jonathan Singer: Yeah. Well, why is that psychodynamic as well as if it psychodynamic, why is it that people don't intend of it every bit psychodynamic?
Joan Berzoff: Mary Richmond was talking virtually this inwards 1917. She literally talks virtually how the ghosts of the past times inhabit the acquaint as well as how nosotros demand to concur that cognition inwards working with whatever client, live they an immigrant, live they deserted, live they a widow, whomever. We demand to have got some cognition virtually how the ancestors of the past times come inwards into the acquaint as well as that's basically social work, but that's also psychodynamically informed social piece of work as well as I intend that component subdivision of the trouble, component subdivision of the danger is that when students are exhorted to do solution-focused work, they are non asked to intend virtually the ancestors or the ghosts that inhabit a person's experience as well as so they're ofttimes encouraged to precisely laid upward a employment without an appreciation for who the individual is inwards the surroundings with the problem. But psychodynamic theory is social work. It's non something other than social piece of work as well as it's every bit early on every bit our social piece of work ancestors began. The School for Social Work at Smith started every bit a schoolhouse inwards response to trauma as well as it was the trauma of World War I as well as it started with a belief that 1 needed to know why ii people who had experienced the same trauma, internalized, metabolized that trauma so differently based on who that individual was, how that individual came to live constituted psychologically as well as socially. So, this is non novel as well as it is real much at the pump of social work.
I intend likely the only psychodynamic theory that's beingness taught forthwith every bit far every bit I could regard inwards my recent lecture at the University of Texas is attachment theory which is necessary but non sufficient, who empathize how the social piece of work – I'm sorry, how the social world, comes to live metabolized differently past times every private as well as how trauma comes to live metabolized differently past times every individual. And so piece I applaud that attachment theory is beingness inwards taught inwards schools for social work, I intend a neat bargain of the richness as well as the texture of what social piece of work students have got traditionally learned as well as demand to know has been lost inwards the elbow grease to solve problems, inwards the elbow grease to piece of work harder as well as harder as well as faster as well as faster as well as inwards the drift that nosotros have got towards manualized treatments that process the employment but non the individual with the employment inwards the surroundings inwards which that individual lives.
Jonathan Singer: So, you lot have got this text coming out [Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations, published inwards 2012 past times Columbia University Press] on– Joan Berzoff: I do.
Jonathan Singer: And we've touched on precisely a twosome of topics hither today as well as I'm wondering is at that topographic point anything that you lot have got written virtually inwards the text that you lot intend is genuinely a primal or essential thought for people to live aware of–
Joan Berzoff: I intend 1 of the of import driving forces that made me write this textbook had to do with your start query which is why is psychodynamic theory relevant to populations at adventure as well as nosotros ofttimes hear a devaluation of or an eschewing of psychodynamic theory every bit if it's precisely for the “worried well” or it's precisely for people with privilege as well as so because inwards my 31-year career has been virtually teaching students why nosotros tin exercise psychodynamic theories with those who are most vulnerable as well as most at risk, I wanted to create a textbook that would render instance studies inwards which psychodynamic theory was non only necessary but crucial to agreement clients inwards their social context. So, at that topographic point are chapters virtually prisoners which inquire the query why would a prisoner who is you lot know hold upward released from prison theatre compelled to commit some other criminal offense so he tin become dorsum to the security as well as security of a prison theatre or why do – let's see. Why do women who are homeless as well as who are coming out of incarceration have got such a hard fourth dimension maintaining relationships with their children as well as at that topographic point are real complex reasons that are biopsychosocial or why for an example, what are the effects of a province similar Republic of Bulgaria on children who are institutionalized past times the province itself so that mothers experience disempowered as well as unable to attach to or attention for their children. There are eighteen chapters. All of them are vulnerable as well as at adventure populations on the solid set down of race or shape or linguistic communication or ethnicity or civilisation or condition every bit individual who is gay or lesbian or again, a condition that has to do with disability such every bit deafness or blindness or cognitive damage or at that topographic point are cases that – at that topographic point are chapters that are virtually the chronically mentally sick as well as the betoken of the majority is that psychodynamic theory is absolutely crucial to whatever services are beingness provided every bit we've been talking virtually as well as again, the majority provides rich rich instance studies to illustrate why psychodynamic theory as well as practise are so necessary to agreement something every bit daunting as well as complex every bit some other human being.
Jonathan Singer: How do you lot conceptualize the role of insight oriented piece of work with clients who have got basic needs that are non met?
Joan Berzoff: I'm thinking virtually you lot know you lot tin give a housing voucher to ii clients as well as 1 may have got it as well as regard it every bit a sign of assist as well as thence appreciate that help. Someone else may regard it every bit a sign of their – every bit a sign of devaluation, a sign of their worthlessness as well as may turn down the housing voucher as well as it's of import to empathize sort of the unconscious motivation to a greater extent than or less the credence or the disallow of the housing voucher or 5 people tin live given medication as well as 1 may regard it every bit something to select every bit a sign of promise as well as someone else may regard it every bit a danger to select within one's self as well as someone else may regard it as, again, a sign of hopelessness. So, agreement the most basic underlying reasons why people may or may non have got our services is essential to providing services. I would also fence that psychodynamic practise is non only organized to a greater extent than or less insight, but also to a greater extent than or less facilitating clients' capacities, their strengths so that it's non only virtually insight but it's virtually mastery as well as virtually again, how do nosotros assist develop as well as facilitate the best capacities the clients have got and, you lot know, this includes looking at psychological issues but it also includes looking at powerfulness issues as well as issues of disenfranchisement as well as oppression based on race as well as gender, shape as well as culture.
Jonathan Singer: So, it sounds similar it tin live a genuinely fascinating text for folks. Either those who already have got a psychodynamic framework to their practise or those who were–
Joan Berzoff: Who don't. Yes.
Jonathan Singer: Who don't, which is likely the audience you're writing it for.
Joan Berzoff: It's a petty similar within out. I don't know whether you lot know.
Jonathan Singer: Mm-hmm. Sure.
Joan Berzoff: Yeah. But that majority was genuinely written for people who either did or did non have got whatever psychodynamic background as well as it was – again, it was our start elbow grease to tell that psychodynamic theory was absolutely essential for multicultural clients as well as this is an extension inwards damage of so what does the practise genuinely facial expression similar as well as what are people genuinely doing inwards the plain had the psychodynamic practise facial expression as well as had the psychodynamic theory inform socially complex practice.
Jonathan Singer: So, again, Joan you've made a number of you lot know compelling arguments for the importance of psychodynamic theory inwards working with that adventure populations. Thanks so much for beingness with us today as well as talking virtually psychodynamic theory as well as at adventure populations. I genuinely appreciate you lot taking the time.
Joan Berzoff: And it was a pleasance talking with you.
END
References as well as resources
- Berzoff, J. (2011). The Transformative Nature of Grief as well as Bereavement, Clinical Social Work Journal, 39, 262-269.
- Berzoff, J. (2011). Falling Through the Cracks: Psychodynamic Practice with Vulnerable as well as Oppressed Populations. New York: Columbia University Press.
- Berzoff, J., Hertz, P. & Flanagan, L. (2011). Inside Out as well as Outside In: Psychodynamic Theories inwards Multicultural Contexts(3nd edition). Lanham, MD: Roman as well as Littlefield. Berzoff, J. & Kita, E. (2010). Compassion Fatigue as well as Countertransference: Two Different Concepts. Clinical Social Work Journal, 38, 341-349.
- Berzoff, J. & Kokaliari, E. (2008). Non-suicidal self injury alongside non-clinical college women. Affilia: Journal of Women as well as Social Work, 23, 250–270.
- Berzoff, J. & Swantkowski, J. (2008) Developing a renal supportive attention squad from the voices of patients, families as well as palliative attention staff. Palliative & Supportive Care, 6, 133–139.
APA (6th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Host). (2012, June 25). Psychodynamic therapy for vulnerable, at-risk as well as oppressed populations: Interview with Joan Berzoff, M.S.W., Ed.D. [Episode 72]. Social Work Podcast. Podcast retrieved Month Day, Year, from /search?q=psychodynamic-therapy-with-vulnerable
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