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In today's interview Danna together with I utter nearly what makes a social worker a clinical social worker, what distinguishes a proficient from a bad clinical social worker, the 1 essential thing that all social workers convey to supervision, together with the purpose of narcissism, observing ego, transference, counter-transference together with the existent human relationship inwards clinical social work. We halt amongst a give-and-take of coin together with how social workers demand to earn plenty so they tin give notice hold upward acquaint amongst their clients.
@socworkpodcast Holy #99 podcast. LOVED Danna Bodenheimer's interview. Buying the mass ASAP. Thank you. — Lyndsay (@Wilshawl) November 10, 2015 Bio
(from Amazon.com)Dr. Danna Bodenheimer, LCSW, lives together with plant inwards Philadelphia, PA. After leaving New York City inwards 2004, she had no thought that dearest for some other metropolis was possible. But working together with living equally a social worker inwards Philadelphia has demonstrated, for her, the beauty of her city.
Danna graduated from Smith College, earning her bachelor’s flat inwards Women’s Studies. After wholeheartedly planning on attending a Ph.D. computer programme inwards psychology, going so far equally to acquire her post-baccalaureate flat inwards psychology from Columbia University, Danna discovered the intricate beauty together with possibility that social operate offers. Turning downward psychology programs to have her MSW from Smith College, together with returning to her educational roots inwards Northampton, Danna constitute her clinical self. After completing 2 internships inwards Philadelphia, 1 inwards a partial twenty-four hr current handling computer programme together with some other at a schoolhouse for psychoanalysis, Danna began her career at the Tuttleman Counseling Center at Temple University.Three years later, spell inwards the middle of her doctoral studies at the University of Pennsylvania, where she received her DSW, Danna began a teaching career together with her ain private practice. Having taught at Rutgers, Temple, together with the University of Pennsylvania, Danna has settled into teaching at Bryn Mawr’s Graduate School of Social Work together with Social Research. She teaches clinical practise together with classes on gender together with sexuality. Danna is at nowadays the caput of the Walnut Psychotherapy Center, a trauma-informed outpatient setting that she founded, specializing inwards the handling of the LGBTQ population. Danna spends her fourth dimension supervising, practicing psychotherapy, teaching, together with consulting. She is the woman bring upward of 2 amazing immature boys together with lives inwards Philadelphia amongst her wife. She uses Philadelphia equally a landscape to written report issues of oppression, intersecting identities, together with complex socioeconomic struggle.
Danna received the 2011-2012 Award for Excellence inwards Teaching from the University of Pennsylvania. She was also selected equally a swain for the American Psychoanalytic Association for 2012-2013. She is a licensed clinical social worker (LCSW) inwards Pennsylvania.
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Transcript
IntroductionJonathan Singer: Hey in that location podcast listeners Jonathon here, today’s episode becoming a clinical social worker. About 80-85% of students that acquire inwards MSW programs have got the destination of beingness direct practise clinical social workers. They desire to operate amongst people at the micro level. They desire to do private therapy, theatre unit of measurement therapy, brace therapy, grouping therapy, but 1 of the things nearly MSW programs is that for the most component division they are advanced generalist programs. Meaning nosotros desire social workers to graduate amongst in that location MSW, to hold upward able to understand, together with operate inside multiple systems at multiple levels. So if you lot desire to hold upward a clinical social worker together with your graduating from an advanced generalist computer programme your non going to have got all of the skills together with cognition that you lot demand to only jump correct inwards together with hold upward an advanced clinical social worker. So how do you lot acquire there?
Well I am real excited nearly todays guest, Dr. Danna Bodenheimer. She latterly published a mass through New Social Worker Press called Real World Clinical Social Work: Find your vocalism together with observe your way. Danna is the perfect individual to write this book. She received her MSW from Smith College together with her doctorate inwards Social Work from the University of Pennsylvania. She’s a highly sought after educator who has taught at Rutgers, Temple University, Bryn Mawr, together with the University of Pennsylvania where she won the 2012 accolade for excellence inwards teaching. She maintains a private practise inwards Philadelphia, together with she latterly started together with is the caput of the Walnut Psychotherapy Center, a trauma informed outpatient setting that specializes inwards the handling of LGBTQ patients. I’ve known Danna since 2008, nosotros met when I moved to Philadelphia together with our kids were the same age, they were footling together with my married adult woman is a nurse practitioner together with Danna’s married adult woman is a nurse practitioner, together with Danna together with I are both educators together with social workers. And so nosotros lived inwards the same neighborhood together with nosotros talked nearly a lot of things having to do amongst clinical social operate together with what it agency to hold upward a therapist together with a social worker, together with so I was genuinely excited when I heard that she was writing this mass for Linda Grobman’s New Social Worker Press. In fact, I wrote a footling blurb for the dorsum of the book. Danna acknowledges me inwards her acknowledgment section. And I am only telling you lot that so in that location is total disclosure here. But its non only because I know Danna personally.
Danna thinks nearly clinical social operate real intensely, she has thought through both because of her studies together with because of the intensive supervision she has done what it agency to hold upward inwards a clinical human relationship together with so inwards today’s interview I was real excited to utter amongst her nearly what makes a social worker a clinical social worker, what distinguishes a proficient social worker from a bad social worker, nosotros utter nearly the 1 essential thing that all social workers demand to convey to supervision inwards social club to hold upward ameliorate clinical social workers, together with Danna’s preparation is inwards psychodynamic psychotherapy so she talks nearly the purpose of narcissism, the observing ego, transference, countertransference, together with the existent human relationship inwards clinical social work, but don’t think that Danna is all wrapped upward inwards a bunch of abstract price together with isn’t grounded inwards the existent ground because nosotros halt our give-and-take talking nearly coin together with the kinds of things that social workers demand to hold upward thinking nearly when they graduate inwards social club to hold upward financially stable plenty inwards their positions so they tin give notice focus on providing first-class tending to their clients, so if you lot similar what Danna says today together with you lot similar how she says it, delight consider going to the New Social Worker website or Amazon.com or you lot could move to SocialWorkpodcast.com together with in that location volition hold upward links to her mass Real World Clinical Social Work: Find your vocalism together with observe your way. And at nowadays without farther ado, on to episode 99 of the Social Work podcast: Becoming a Clinical Social Worker: Interview amongst Dr. Danna Bodenheimer.
Interview
Jonathan Singer: Danna, thank you lot so much for beingness hither on the social operate podcast talking amongst us nearly clinical social work. So you lot have got gone through your MSW program, you're doing the clinical rails together with you lot graduate together with you’re a Master social worker. But, it doesn’t hateful that you lot mastered social work.
Jonathan Singer [5:07]: So what else do novel graduates need?
Danna Bodenheimer: I would say somewhere towards the initiatory of all of the 2nd semester of people’s 2nd twelvemonth they start freaking out nearly how they are going to hold upward a proficient clinical social worker. And I would say that the residue of that semester is spent feeling so anxious that the actual integration of the theory gets to hold upward almost impossible, together with they’re also weighed downward yesteryear the stress of the licensing examination together with finding a undertaking together with figuring out how they are going to pay their loans. So spending fourth dimension on figuring out how to acquire a clinical social worker gets pushed to the side inwards abide by of these other stressors. My promise is to figure out a way that nosotros tin give notice genuinely abide by the procedure of actualizing the clinical social operate identity, together with for me that takes several steps that are quite complicated inwards price of one’s internal search for what they believe in, what they believe makes people well, together with what they believe makes people unwell, people’s internal search for what theory genuinely plant together with clicks for them non only what their favorite professor said or what is most latterly the most evidenced based practise together with also people doing an internal search for how much coin they demand to make, people students who are nearly to graduate are for sure they demand a undertaking of course of written report together with it ofttimes blinds them to genuinely identifying their sense of worth inwards the champaign together with how much coin they demand to brand to do operate that volition allow them to actualize their beliefs nearly how to brand people better.
Jonathan Singer [6:40]: So when you lot say actualize what are you lot talking about?
Danna Bodenheimer: I’m talking nearly my genuinely clear feeling that I have got gotten from students that they pass a proficient amount of fourth dimension inwards internship amongst a faux sense of self. Meaning that they vacillate betwixt feeling either totally awesome at beingness a clinical social worker or feeling similar they are totally awful at it. And they vacillate betwixt these 2 self-states I would say multiple times a twenty-four hr current during almost every session they have, together with what I hateful yesteryear actualization is a sense of humility together with confidence that co-occur because you lot have got a existent sense of what you lot think plant together with helps.
Jonathan Singer [7:23]: And so you lot reckon this form of integration, is that a proficient way of maxim it? Integrating the component division of you lot that feels unsure amongst the component division of you lot that feels sure?
Danna Bodenheimer: Right! I hateful I’m talking nearly proceeding amongst a sort of solid sense of non knowing together with knowing at the same time.
Jonathan Singer: Right together with that something that is a hallmark of a clinical social worker.
Danna Bodenheimer: Yes, that’s a hallmark of a clinical social worker. I think was becomes problematic for newly graduating social workers is that they experience the non knowing agency that they are horrible together with that the knowing tin give notice hold upward an overconfidence that becomes an orthodoxy around a practise orientation that doesn’t ofttimes assist to come across their clients where they are at.
Jonathan Singer [8:12]: So asset those 2 things at the same fourth dimension is non an indicator that you’re a bad social worker?
Danna Bodenheimer: Well I hateful I think the thought of a bad social worker is an interesting idea
Jonathan Singer: Say to a greater extent than nearly that
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay, good initiatory of all of all I desire to seat out in that location that I think in that location are bad social workers
Jonathan Singer: Yes
Danna Bodenheimer: And what I would similar to do is to assist people to non experience similar they are universally bad together with for them to also non experience similar they are universally proficient but, that they brand mistakes that assist inwards their evolution. In my estimation a bad social worker is 1 who is likewise anxious nearly their capacity to do this good to genuinely hold upward amongst a client.
Jonathan Singer: So 1 of the hallmarks of a bad social worker or a social worker that is doing clinical social operate poorly is that they are non genuinely acquaint amongst their client, together with maybe they are non acquaint because they are so anxious nearly what they are doing.
Danna Bodenheimer: Right, together with to me a bad social worker I approximate is 1 who is sitting amongst a customer inwards the hopes of self servicing their narcissistic need.
Jonathan Singer: That sounds pretty bad
Danna Bodenheimer: Yeah that is genuinely bad together with it genuinely happens all the fourth dimension because nosotros all have got narcissistic needs together with component division of my wishing inwards working amongst students together with novel graduates together with whatsoever supervisees is to normalize the presence of having narcissistic needs when sitting amongst customer together with to also seat those needs inwards their seat so that they don’t dominate the treatment. So I think that somebody has a narcissist demand together with they automatically experience similar “oh my God I’m bad, I’m inwards this for the incorrect reason” together with my promise is for them to experience similar “oh my God this is something that I demand to pay attending to, this is something I demand to operate out inwards supervision, this is non something that I’m non to ashamed of to operate out inwards supervision, is going to acquire better”
Jonathan Singer [9:56]: And are you lot using the term narcissistic demand equally a bad thing, similar inherently similar a narcissistic demand is something nosotros shouldn’t have got or are you lot using it to a greater extent than globally? Like neither proficient nor bad
Danna Bodenheimer: I’m using it equally neither proficient nor bad but acquire bad when left unchecked.
Jonathan Singer [10:17]: So 1 of the prescriptions for addressing this narcissistic demand is supervision right?
Danna Bodenheimer: right
Jonathan Singer [10:24]: So what should novel social workers, clinical social workers know nearly supervision, how should they usage it, what advice do you lot have?
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay so I think that is a genuinely complicated query because 1 moving from the purpose of supervisee educatee to supervisee professional person is a genuinely complicated shift together with component division of the argue students don’t brand slap-up usage of supervision is because they desire to hold upward slap-up students. So they don’t necessarily desire to tell in that location supervisors everything that they are thinking together with everything that they are getting incorrect together with they together with so chop-chop displace into the champaign together with their supervisors are their boss together with they don’t desire to tell their supervisor everything that they are thinking or perchance doing incorrect because its their boss together with hence nobody is genuinely getting the fourth dimension to developmentally brand usage of supervision inwards the way its needed.
Jonathan Singer: Because they demand to hold upward honest nearly what in that location either non doing good or what’s non going good inwards social club to address that but in that location is the fright “I do non desire to hold off incompetent”
Danna Bodenheimer: There is the fright of non wanting to hold off incompetent; in that location is the fright of non wanting to hold off narcissistic, in that location is the fright most predominantly of non wanting to hold off unprofessional together with in that location is a huge fright of non wanting to hold off unprofessional together with basically I would categorize a huge amount of social workers who start to develop real personal feelings for their clients equally the ones who don’t desire to hold off unprofessional together with hence don’t usage supervision together with the argue why this is so problematic is because these are the people who demand to hold upward making supervision, using supervision the most
Jonathan Singer [12:00]: Okay so in that location are 2 things that you lot mentioned, personal feelings tin give notice you lot clarify what you lot hateful yesteryear personal feelings
Danna Bodenheimer: I mean, together with I hateful to normalize this real intentionally when nosotros shape strong attachments to our clients, when nosotros dream nearly our clients, when nosotros sit down at the dinner tabular array together with nosotros desire to utter nearly clients amongst our families, together with when nosotros experience similar some of the most of import people inwards our lives are our clients.
Jonathan Singer: Okay those are those experiences together with relationships that our code of ethics, the social operate code of ethics, genuinely draws some real fine lines around but it sounds similar your maxim its maybe non equally dark together with white equally our code of ethics is suggesting inwards price of similar that is your customer together with when you lot acquire out the purpose your customer stays at the office
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay so what I am maxim is that our encephalon literally does non have got compartments, together with the thought that the NASW code of ethics puts forth is that some how nosotros have got that capacity together with somehow 2 years of schoolhouse to develop that capacity for us together with for the initiatory of all calendar week maybe 2 of most practices classes are spent on the code of ethics together with and so were done. And what nosotros basically hateful yesteryear code of ethics when nosotros utter nearly it inwards grade is that nosotros tell students to non self bring out together with it becomes distilled downward to that flat of simplicity when inwards reality our relationships amongst our clients are far to a greater extent than complicated, dualistic, together with haunting inwards ways that powerfulness defy the code of ethics but genuinely speak to our humanity which is something nosotros shouldn’t hold upward ashamed of because its what makes us social workers.
Jonathan Singer [13:40]: So Danna, tin give notice I seat you lot on the spot for a second?
Danna Bodenheimer: Sure
Jonathan Singer [13:42]: Is in that location something that you lot think from when you lot were initiatory of all starting out, an experience you lot had working amongst somebody where you lot didn’t desire to part amongst your supervisor “I think I am non doing well”?
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay so I desire to reply that query yesteryear non necessarily looking dorsum because I don’t desire anybody to have got the impression that you lot evolve beyond the feeling that you’re non doing well. I hateful I experience similar I have got been practicing since 2005. I can’t count how many clients I have got seen together with I experience at some betoken during everyday that I am non doing well. So I only desire to seat that out there
Jonathan Singer: I think that’s genuinely great, yea totally, that’s a real helpful reframe
Danna Bodenheimer: So inwards price of things that I haven’t wanted to tell my supervisor I volition maintain to say that daily I have got encounters amongst my, amongst my clients that brand me experience similar I am going to edit this for my supervisor inwards this way together with and so ultimately when I move to supervision I tell the whole truth together with nix but the truth because I have got my license at nowadays together with I am non doing it for the hours together with I am paying her so that’s a huge advantage. If the powerfulness dynamic were laid differently I powerfulness experience different, but to reply Jonathon’s query nearly things I didn’t do good or things that I desire to maintain from my supervisor I was especially haunted yesteryear a dream when I started of putting matching onesies on my xxx twelvemonth quondam customer amongst my newborn boy together with I felt genuinely ashamed of that together with I would say that was in all likelihood viii years agone that I had that dream, together with I however experience ashamed nearly it, but to a greater extent than latterly this yesteryear weekend in that location was a political party I didn’t move to together with and so in that location was a lot of pictures of the political party seat on Facebook together with and so I felt similar I wasn’t invited to the political party together with I had no friends together with I thought to myself good I have got my clients they desire to reckon me, they desire to hang out amongst me, together with you lot know I had to constabulary that inwards a for sure way that I wouldn’t say was born out of my superego it wasn’t only similar this is bad that you lot think it, it was sort of like you lot know what lets genuinely hold off at that lets genuinely hold off at this instant inwards your life, your feeling lonely inwards it together with how you lot powerfulness hold upward using your clients to service that loneliness that’s something that needs to hold upward dealt amongst together with if its non dealt amongst I acquire a bad social worker. I am non a bad social worker because the thought together with thought came to my mind, if I allow it infiltrate the handling I do it becomes real dangerous
Jonathan Singer: I appreciate you lot honesty nearly that, 1 of the things that I think from my early on days of learning nearly therapy I learned from the mass “The Family Crucible” Gus Napier together with Carl Whitaker together with 1 of the things inwards the mass was Gus writes nearly a theatre unit of measurement that comes inwards together with he had the thought that the teenage fille was attractive, together with I think reading this thinking this guy’s awful together with my teacher was similar nosotros think people are attractive all the fourth dimension this is human, together with what you lot are seeing is he is acknowledging his humanity together with is non beingness something that he has to enshroud inwards social club to hold upward a proficient therapist. But genuinely something that he has to encompass together with I what I heard you lot maxim is I have got thoughts that maybe if I were constructing what somebody thinks of equally the ideal clinician I wouldn’t have got those, but you lot know what I do together with non acknowledging them is what makes you lot bad. Not having them
Danna Bodenheimer: To me the ideal clinician is the 1 who does a repetitive scathing inventory of their internal ground together with if your non doing that your thoughts acquire interventions that don’t service your client. If you lot are doing that these tin give notice hold upward places of growth. So some other instance I don’t know if this is helpful or not, I have got a customer who identifies equally a gay male, I seat equally a lesbian we’ve been working together for maybe 8 or ix years together with nosotros had a session where he said to me sometimes I experience similar you lot similar me, similar you lot similar like me together with he said that I know that’s crazy because I know your gay together with I’m gay, together with its weird but I sometimes only experience similar you lot similar like me. I directly felt horribly ashamed together with was similar do I similar like him together with what does this hateful nearly my identity together with how do I genuinely really experience nearly him? And I realized that the way that I genuinely experience nearly this customer is that together with this is sort of a provocative thing to say he is a manful individual client, he is 1 of the initiatory of all men inwards my life that I have got genuinely loved together with he made me realize when I was important amongst a boy that I could dearest a son. But I had never genuinely brought that flat of attachment into the room inwards a way that was especially productive together with he ended upward I think receiving the intensity of this attachment inwards a way that was sort of toxic together with made him experience similar in that location was this gaze upon him that Pb him to experience unsafe. And I’m non for sure that I tin give notice say to you lot what would of been the proper intervention given that I experience that this pocket-size could have got been my son, I do non have got the reply to that. I do know that I didn’t genuinely bargain amongst my feelings of loving of loving him inwards supervision properly. And that he ended upward experiencing it inwards a for sure way that felt destructive to him because of that.
Jonathan Singer: And it speaks to the lineament of your human relationship that he was able together with willing to convey it up
Danna Bodenheimer: Right.
Jonathan Singer: So you lot could together with so address it.
Danna Bodenheimer: Right. So to me the hallmark of clinical social work, no affair what domain your inwards together with if it’s a infirmary setting, if it’s a schoolhouse setting, if it’s a private practice, is that your working amongst your clients to allow them say what feels unsayable directly up. And if you’re non providing that infinite together with so I don’t believe that their creating a transportation of liberty inwards their ain hear that they tin give notice dwell inwards their ain hear inwards a way that experience condom together with comfortable which is ultimately what were trying to acquire people to do. Dwell safely inside the confines of their mind. So for me 1 of the tenants of proficient clinical social operate is to render a infinite where the unsayable becomes sayable which agency that they acquire to say things to you lot that are scary, which agency that proficient clinical social operate inwards my hear requires that nosotros invite our clients to do that inwards ways that powerfulness injure us. This is non something that I experience similar nosotros don’t utter nearly inwards school, together with I would say that 1 of original reasons nosotros don’t do that is because nosotros start off talking nearly the code of ethics inwards a way that is so reductive. That were sort of similar don’t acquire into anything that’s messy together with what that ends upward doing is keeping the unsayable unsayable. And I think what nosotros demand to do is trust our students together with novel graduates together with social workers to bargain amongst messiness inwards a way that’s ethical rather than hoping that it only goes away.
Jonathan Singer [20:43]: So trust is 1 of the ways that nosotros tin give notice do this together with beingness honest inwards supervision is some other way nosotros tin give notice do this. What are some other ways that novel social workers are able to have got tending of themselves, know themselves, hold upward truthful to themselves so they tin give notice hold upward their clients inwards the way you lot have got been talking
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay so 1 of the things that I think people would hold upward surprised nearly me motility I do sort of utter nearly the clinical human relationship inwards ways that are somewhat provocative but the way that I experience similar I’m able to do that is because of a implicit together with total faith inwards the frame of the human relationship whatever the frame may hold upward if it’s a infirmary setting its that you lot come across inwards this room for fifteen minutes, if it’s a schoolhouse setting its that you lot come across for xxx minutes during social studies class, I do non tending what it is, I believe that the sanctity of the frame allows us to acquire inwards territories that are otherwise terrifying, together with without the security of the frame I believe that this operate collapses. I do non believe that the frame needs to hold upward something that is held exclusively internally I think nosotros have got the external frame to allow for internal liberty together with intimacy to occur
Jonathan Singer [21:55]: Can you lot unpack that thought of internal versus external a footling bit?
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay sure, so nosotros have got the external frame lets say for instance my external frame is that I come across clients at 1429 Walnut Street together with I come across them for l minutes together with I sit down inwards this chair together with they sit down inwards that chair together with that is the frame, they don’t acquire upward from that chair I don’t acquire upward from this chair that’s the external frame. What the external frame allows me to do is experience everything together with anything that I feel. What the internal frame also allows me to do is have got this broad attain of internal exploration earlier creating interventions. Interventions are something that I think proficient clinical social workers takes a lot of fourth dimension to develop so I would say for every 10,000 thoughts I have, I have got 1 or 2 interventions together with I think that’s what is genuinely of import is for clinical social workers to know that they should hold upward able to have got the internal infinite to create multiple ideas nearly what in that location going to do earlier they do anything at all. One thing that I similar to tell students that I think frees them upward a lot inwards clinical social operate is that a clinical social operate conversation is non 1 that is typically reciprocal its non similar Jonathon interviewing me correct now, Jonathon asks a query I reply it together with and so he asks some other query nosotros have got the construction of the conversation. The clinical social operate conversations tin give notice hold upward anything, it tin give notice hold upward a linear, it tin give notice hold upward silent, somebody tin give notice enquire a query together with in that location doesn’t have got to hold upward an answer, together with I think given that this conversation doesn’t have got to move inwards whatsoever traditional way, nosotros acquire to think a lot of things earlier maxim a lot of things.
Jonathan Singer [23:35]: And it sounds similar the things your thinking nearly have got to do amongst the human relationship together with that’s non a linear thing
Danna Bodenheimer: right. So the things I’m thinking nearly are basically a trifecta of transference, countertransference, together with the existent relationship. I experience similar these 3 things co-occur all the time. I don’t believe that transference together with countertransference trump the presence of a existent human relationship together with I don’t believe that their beingness a existent human relationship agency there’s non countertransference together with transference. Transference is basically every unmarried thing that the customer is bringing inwards that they experience nearly you lot that is informed yesteryear other aspects of their life. Countertransference is all of the responses invoked inwards the clinician yesteryear the customer that have got to do amongst other aspects of their life together with also things inwards their life that are happening inwards the room at that instant so for instance I consider countertransference to hold upward when I acquire tired, when I acquire bored, when I wake upward inwards the morning time deciding what to article of apparel I’m acquire dressed for my 2:00 session; I consider that all to hold upward countertransference. There’s also only the fact that there’s me together with customer Beth sitting together together with were 2 existent people who have got come upward to know each other who are commenting on the atmospheric condition together with I would non say that’s especially transference. So I’m sitting amongst a customer sort of inwards the swirl of analysis betwixt transference, countertransference, together with the existent materials that is happening together with inwards that swirl equally I’m sort of observing that swirl, I’m similar what hear is of the most terrific import to part together with genuinely is it worth sharing anything at all. Because earlier sharing anything I’m non for sure anything needs to hold upward said.
Jonathan Singer [25:18]: And so when you’re thinking nearly what to say or what to do. Your agreement the dynamics is this transference, is this countertransference, is this the existent relationship, together with and so you lot brand your conclusion based on whatever it is your figuring out is inwards the instant going on right?
Danna Bodenheimer: Yes, its sort of of like, good I desire to say 2 things some interventions are carefully calculated together with concocted after deep critical analysis together with thought together with some are spontaneous together with I don’t desire to give listeners the sense that every intervention is a perfectly constructed one.
Jonathan Singer [25:58]: Wynton Marsalis 1 time said something nearly playing jazz that I dearest together with I think is totally applicable to therapy. He said inwards jazz the Federal Reserve annotation doesn’t matter: it's the Federal Reserve annotation together with the Federal Reserve annotation that follows it that matters
Danna Bodenheimer: Right, I think that’s genuinely truthful inwards clinical work, I think 1 thing that nosotros forget when nosotros do interventions together with were terrified nearly how the intervention went is that nosotros have got the customer to ask. So I’m going to say to a customer together with I am only going to have got a jeopardy together with say it sounds to me similar you lot together with your partner aren’t happy together with and so I’m terrified that I said it together with I tin give notice do 1 of 2 things bargain internally amongst my terror together with internally amongst it exclusively or I tin give notice say how does it experience that I only said that. And 1 of the things that is so beautiful nearly the a linear together with sort of, non carefully constructed nature of the social operate conversation is that it allows for a huge amount of transparency nosotros tin give notice say what nosotros have got said together with nosotros tin give notice utter nearly what nosotros only said together with nosotros tin give notice utter nearly it over again together with this is what makes the social operate conversation dissimilar than other conversations. Social Work graduates together with students are e'er similar what makes this therapy, what makes this clinical social work, how this whatsoever dissimilar than whatsoever other conversations I’m having, together with my reply to that query is almost uniformly the presences of transparency together with the presence of the awareness that the content that were talking nearly is of import but is secondary to our awareness of the process. So your customer tin give notice talk, tin give notice come upward inwards together with say, I had a customer come upward inwards together with say this calendar week yelling screaming nearly how she only got 3 musquito bites on the way inwards together with nosotros could pass the whole session only talking nearly the musquito bites together with that would non hold upward a clinical conversation. I’m non maxim that could never hold upward a clinical conversation but what nosotros genuinely demand to utter nearly is the procedure yesteryear which she is coming inwards together with talking nearly this why is she talking nearly it so intensely, why is she telling me it, why this morning time was it especially wounding, nosotros demand to create for our clients together with for ourselves equally clinical social workers the presence of an observing ego. Meaning similar lets hold off at this conversation together with utter nearly why this conversation is happening the way it’s happening. And the argue nosotros demand to do that is because I firmly believe that adulthood the mensurate of adulthood is inwards some ways the presence of an observing ego.
Jonathan Singer: So I cant read the minds of the people listening
Danna Bodenheimer: right
Jonathan Singer [28:29]: But, I would suspect that in that location is equal component division bliss together with joy hearing you lot utter nearly this deeply profound insight you lot have got together with the human relationship you lot have got amongst your clients together with also equal component division of yes but how do I acquire there. So how does 1 move from beingness a novel social worker to an advanced clinical social worker? Other than buying your book
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay good you lot have got to purchase my mass together with and so it’s their, its all there. But you lot genuinely don’t have got to purchase my book. The way that somebody becomes an advanced clinical social worker together with I volition non deny that I’m an advanced social worker together with I also volition non deny that I know that when I utter nearly my cases other people acquire anxious because they think why are her cases so deep together with my cases non that deep. And I tin give notice tell you lot 1 that on a daily ground my cases don’t experience this deep; this is exclusively the narrative of a composite sketch. So I pass a lot of fourth dimension talking about, I said to my grade the other calendar week that sometimes I volition move through Tinder amongst my clients together with nosotros volition swipe through whose cute together with non cute and
Jonathan Singer [29:40]: And Tinder the dating app?
Danna Bodenheimer: Tinder the dating app. Tinder. OkCupid. I hold off at their profiles amongst them, how does this painting exhibit look, how does that painting exhibit look, what do you lot think of this guy together with the minutia is that existent together with component division of the argue I’ll do that is because I believe that attending to that leads to the depth I’m talking about. And I don’t think that you lot ever acquire to a deep seat yesteryear trying to acquire to a deep seat together with I think that what Jonathon is quest nearly trusting the process, is that to trust a procedure is to genuinely know that you lot don’t know how to acquire were your going. And the truth is I genuinely don’t know how I acquire to where I’m going, in that location is many early on sessions where I sit down inwards together with I’m similar where is this going, what’s going to happen, are nosotros ever going to shape a connection, am I ever going to non hold upward bored, is this ever going to experience interesting or is this individual ever going to modify together with I say to myself you lot don’t know yet you lot only don’t know yet. But what I do know is that I believe inwards clinical social operate together with I am non maxim it’s a deity or my God but I sort of experience similar inwards social club to genuinely do this operate good you lot demand to have got a strong belief inwards the transformative potential of it inwards a way that its almost similar it’s a higher power, you lot have got to realize that people have got done this earlier you lot together with people are going to do this after you lot together with that people have got long gotten good because of it. I believe Freud called this the talking cure Freud also said that the 2 original things that he needed to accomplish amongst his clients was for them to develop the capacity to dearest together with to work, he never talked nearly the capacity for happiness. I don’t subscribe to the capacity for happiness, I think its nonsense; life it to complicated for that but if nosotros tin give notice acquire our clients to a seat where they tin give notice dearest together with operate I think nosotros have got done our operate together with that operate tin give notice hold upward anything it tin give notice hold upward staying at home, it tin give notice hold upward blogging, it tin give notice hold upward weeding I don’t know what its going to hold upward but it has to experience similar work. To me I’m non for sure what else tin give notice acquire somebody in that location but talking. And why I believe that is because what differentiates humans from everybody else is talking, that’s what it is nosotros have got language. And I believe inwards language, I believe inwards the precision of linguistic communication together with I believe the to a greater extent than precise, the to a greater extent than exactly that linguistic communication is used the to a greater extent than probable health is to occur.
Jonathan Singer [32:06]: So tin give notice you, tin give notice you lot only summarize for us what folks demand to do or what you lot think is helpful inwards doing to acquire a clinical social worker?
Danna Bodenheimer: Okay so for me I have got a real clear belief inwards their beingness a deep connectedness betwixt trauma evolution together with attachment that’s what I think nearly all twenty-four hr current every day. Trauma, development, attachment those are my 3 things, in that location only my 3 things. I believe that every clinician needs to have got some sort of guiding regulation that moves him or her through his or her work. Some sort of things that they are keeping rails of that Pb them to believe their forming plenty of a instance conceptualization that volition assist them create interventions that volition assist their client. So I’m sharing my guiding principles, I’m non sharing them so you lot usage them I’m sharing them because I think inwards social club to do operate without a belief arrangement is to sort of, what do you lot do when you lot jump out of plane? What is that called?
Jonathan Singer: parachute
Danna Bodenheimer: Plane jumping!? Sky diving!
Jonathan Singer: Skye Diving!
Danna Bodenheimer: I think its similar heaven diving without a parachute. My feeling is, until you lot seat your beliefs nearly what creates health together with unwellness your jumping out of a bird without a parachute. The thing is you lot powerfulness non know what you lot believe together with that is what you lot demand to hold upward using supervision for. I think that nosotros have got a tremendous amount of focus on evidence-based practice. I don’t think that bear witness based practise tin give notice hold upward replaced yesteryear the clinical wisdom that is offered yesteryear our fore fathers together with mothers inwards this champaign that are given to us our fore mothers together with fore fathers are delivered to us inwards the shape of supervision. And supervision is what volition Pb you lot to your beliefs together with if you lot approach supervision inwards a way that your fearful you lot wont develop a belief arrangement that volition hold upward able to guide you. And most importantly, Jonathon almost took the microphone away, you lot to observe a way to acquire paid together with the argue why I say that is 1 because I believe social operate tin give notice acquire paid together with I believe if you lot do this operate inwards a way where you lot worry nearly coin all twenty-four hr current every twenty-four hr current you lot wont hold upward able to think straight. And that is a lesson nearly yourself together with it’s a lesson nearly clients because fiscal strife interferes amongst the powerfulness to think critically together with my promise is that you lot tin give notice create some sort of number for yourself that you lot tin give notice life on that gives you lot the psychological infinite to hold upward able to develop an internal practise that your comfortable with.
Jonathan Singer: It’s similar the thought that my ideal salary is plenty so where I don’t demand to think nearly what my salary is.
Danna Bodenheimer: correct together with I think that is an ideal that you lot can’t quite acquire to when you lot start. But I hateful I don’t desire the champaign to kill you, which it tin give notice motility in that location are salaries that volition inwards a way that volition maintain you lot away from beingness able to think together with experience clearly
Jonathan Singer: Well Danna nosotros tin give notice utter for some other 100 hours, give thank you lot you so much for talking to us today nearly clinical social work.
Danna Bodenheimer: And thank you lot for having me Jonathan.
END
Audio transcribed yesteryear Isabel Silverstein.
APA (6th ed) citation for this podcast:
Singer, J. B. (Producer). (2015, Nov 2). #99 - Becoming a clinical social worker: Interview amongst Dr. Danna Bodenheimer [Audio Podcast]. Social Work Podcast. Retrieved from /search?q=Bodenheimer
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